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Talk:Pablo Fanque

Latest comment: 6 years ago by 0zero9nine in topic Pablo Fanque's birth date
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Birth Date

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Latest comment: 8 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

The repeated reversion of William Darby's birthdate is confounding an original error. I have irrefutably proven that William Darby was born in 1810, not 1796 through original sources, yet this has been reverted back to the inaccurate birthdate. William Darby's parents had a son named William in 1796, who was buried in 1797. William's mother's maiden name of Stamp was cited in both records. In 1810, a second son named William was born, again citing the mother's maiden name. William Darby himself gave an age in census returns more consistent with an 1810 birth and this is also supported by his physical description in contemporary newspaper reports. It is known that Darby had his elder brother's baptismal certificate in his possession, and it's likely that his family mistook this as his own. This error is confounded by it being recorded in biographical publications since, but the original sources (baptismal and burial records) prove that the 1796 birthdate is inaccurate and that he was born in 1810.Jim bexley speed (talk) 01:15, 3 October 2014 (UTC)Reply

What's your source for that thing about Darby keeping his older brother's baptismal certificate in his possession? Thanks. 0zero9nine (talk) 22:49, 23 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
I've no opinion in this debate but just wanted to note that the Leeds Times 13 May 1871 covered Fanque's funeral in depth and claimed that he looked much younger than his real age. It goes on to state, "The coffin, which was of polished oak, bore the following inscription :— 'William Darby, professionally known as Pablo Fanque, born Feb. 28th, 1796, and died May 4th, 1871, aged seventy-five years.'" The Era 14 May 1871 goes into a bit more detail and stated that it was Fanque's manager, Harry Montague, who provided the newspaper with with a copy of the birth certificate which stated 28 February 1796. He also said that Fanque's parents had him baptised the same day as the infant wasn't expected to live more than a few hours. Davepattern (talk) 21:56, 17 December 2015 (UTC)Reply
Just another comment to throw into the mixing bowl... Shortly after Fanque death, juggler John Walker sought to recover a debt of £5 from the widow which was in the form of an I.O.U. note. The Huddersfield Chronicle 13 May 1871 covered the court case in detail and reported that "The late Mr. Pablo Fanque was not able to write himself and he got a manager, named Philips, to sign the IOU in his name." If we take that to mean Fanque was illiterate and uneducated, he may have genuinely believed that his late brother's baptismal certificate (perhaps obtained later in life?) was his own. That's entirely speculation of course, but would perhaps help explain why both Elizabeth and Montague (who then provided the certificate to The Era) failed to question the deceased's age, despite the obvious fact that he looked much younger. Probably also worth noting that initially newspapers widely reported Fanque's age as 67 when he died, e.g. Bradford Daily Telegraph 6 May 1871 "Pablo Fanque, a well known equestrian, died at Stockport on Friday. He was a man of colour, and was born at Norwich in 1804. He was consequently 67 years of age." Davepattern (talk) 08:10, 18 December 2015 (UTC)Reply

Pablo Fanque's birth date

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Latest comment: 6 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion
      • note: I posted this to Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests on 21 July 2015 and I'm leaving said post here for archival reason***

In the Wikipedia entry of Pablo Fanque (real name William Darby), his date of birth is listed as 4 May 1796, but there's evidence that this date of birth actually belongs to his late brother, also named William Darby. In three censuses - 1841, 1851 and 1871 - of England, Fanque - under William Darby - listed his age that corresponded with his year of birth: 1810. He also lists 1810 as his year of birth in the 1871 census.

However, his gravestone lists his year of birth as 1796. Dr. John M. Turner also lists 1796 as Fanque's year of birth in his biography, published under 'Pablo Fanque, Black Circus Proprietor', in Gretchen Gerzina's history book, 'Black Victorians/Black Victorians' (Rutgers University Press, 2003). It's possible that when Turner wrote his biography, he relied on Fanque's gravestone as a source as there wasn't much information on Fanque. The earliest record of Fanque at Wikipedia was created in 2006, which offered just one line.

I also found two archived newspaper articles that say Darby was apprenticed to William Batty (1801–1868) in Norwich in 1821, and had made his first public appearance as 'Young Darby' that year. If Darby was born in 1796, this would make him 25 years old. Far too old for him to have an apprenticeship, which was usually reserved for young boys aged between 10 and 21. If Darby was born in 1810, this would make him 11 years old, which fits his role as an apprentice and his bill, 'Young Darby'. Lastly, W. F. Wallet (1806-1892) often refers Fanque as 'my young friend' in his 1870 autobiography. Wallet would be four years older than Fanque if Fanque was born in 1810, but ten years younger than Fanque if it was 1796.

I did further research and found two sources, which seem to confirm 1810 as Fanque's year of birth and that he had an older brother with the same name. See below (note: 'late' is an alternative of née) for links to the scans of Darby brothers' death and baptismal records, archived at Family Search:

1. Norwich All Saints Church's 1797 record of William Darby ("William son of John Darby and Mary his wife late Mary Stamp Spinster Aged 1 year was buried April the 30 1797")

2. Norwich St. Andrews Workhouse's 1810 record of William Darby ("March 30th William Son of John & Mary Darby late Stamp Spn 18th April" - March 30th is listed in the margin of 'Born' and 18th April is listed in the margin of 'Bapt' (Baptised).)

I'm fairly convinced that Fanque was born in 1810, but I don't know if those two records are enough to change Fanque's year of birth? I tried to find a way to create links to the 1841, 1851 and 1871 censuses, but it's all pay-to-view. I welcome advice or suggestions. Thank you. 0zero9nine (talk) 01:26, 21 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

      • end***

It's also important to note that the man in the photograph isn't Fanque. It may be John Christoff or his brother Herr Christoff (real name: George Frederick Christopher). Both were tightrope walkers and trick riders, and had worked in Fanque's circus for some time. Like Fanque, they were mixed-race black and had worked in Norwich as circus performers. Hence, the possible misidentification by the Norwich Historical Society. I'll contact the Society with the correct photographs, provided by a descendant of Edward 'Ted' Pablo (Fanque's son), and hope they can sort it out at their end. 0zero9nine (talk) 22:46, 23 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

I am looking for photos and history of the Christoff circus family. I am descended from George Frederick and trying to piece together biography. Is this photo Christoff? Can you contact regarding your information about the Christoffs. Thanks!! Erinsullivan98 (talk) 07:15, 28 March 2016 (UTC)Reply

0zero9nine: Fascinating claims regarding the photo. How do I get in touch with you to discuss more? I have another photo out of Gerzina's book, where indeed, Fanque looks quite different. I wish there were some hyperlink that allowed me to send you a message. Greenebee (talk) 21:24, 2 May 2017 (UTC)GreenebeeReply

Greenebee re: the photo of Pablo Fanque

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I initially found out from Dr. John M. Turner's biography of Pablo, which includes a photo belonging to the estate of Pablo's son Ted Pablo, in Gretchen Holrook Gerzina's "Black Victorians-Black Victoriana" (2003). The photo shows a tall, lanky, gaunt-faced and dark-skinned man in a suit.

However, Turner's biography is riddled with factual errors. Such as the wrong birth date, wrong info on Darby's stage name (it was actually The Fantastique Pablo, but a billboard and flyer printer's error shortened and swapped his name to Pablo Fanque, which he'd adopted as his stage name since, but his surname remained: Pablo); wrong info about Pablo's parents (contemporary news reports make it clear that his father wasn't a slave or house servant (he was the head of gardeners), and his mother was a farmer's daughter, who basically married his father because of his higher social position) and Pablo's siblings. So I assumed Dr. Turner had made another mistake with this photo of a lanky guy.

I later attended a seminar on British black history, which featured a slide show of various black Britons. One of them was Pablo. This time, he was standing next to his second wife Elizabeth Corker next to a billboard. Again he was lanky and gaunt-faced. Nothing like the one in the Wikipedia entry. I asked the person (I forget his name, but I can dig it up if you need it) where he got the photo from. He said it was a scan of a photo he borrowed from a descendant of Pablo's cousin Robert Smith Stamp (Pablo's mother Mary Stamp's nephew), who was living in Little Ryburgh, Norfolk, with his wife Elizabeth.

That actually prompted me to create Pablo's family tree, which revealed Pablo's father - John Darby - was born in Norwich, Norfolk, on 13th November in 1766 and that John Darby's father John Darby (Pablo's grandfather) was also born in Norwich where he eventually married Ann Whetherby.

Grandfather Darby's own father John Darby was originally from Saint Kitts, where he was a son of a black woman and a white man, and had worked on various ships until he came to Norwich where he settled and married Ann (yes, another Ann!). Basically, Pablo was a third-generation Briton and a fourth-generation mixed-race Darby (his father and grandfather's mothers and his great-grandfather's father were white).

During that family-tree search, I found a published sketch of Grandfather Darby in a 1723 newspaper report, which recorded his testimony against a thief. He was tall and lanky, just like Pablo in Turner's book. For me, the resemblance confirms the Ted Pablo estate photo is likely the correct image of Pablo.

Sorry it's long-winded, but hope this helps. I don't have a photo, sorry. I couldn't make a copy of the sketch as the archivist wouldn't let me because I didn't have academic credentials. You already have the Black Victoriana book, so no point in scanning it for you, right? I could make a copy of the Darby family tree. Warning, it's pretty extensive, which includes Pablo's siblings and spouses and their children, and Pablo's seven children with four women (Susanna Marlow, Elizabeth Corker, Sarah Smith and Maria Banham). 0zero9nine (talk) 22:13, 25 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

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Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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