Talk:Gord (archaeology)

Please change the name of Belgrade into Beograd. Belgrade is the english-version of the name. Beograd is the native Serbian name, and it better illustrates the point that that the writter is making.

Regards and best wishes.

ґород (gorod) and город (horod)??? ґород does not exist!!! Ukrainian город is Russian огород, and Russian город is Ukrainian місто!!! UeArtemis (talk) 16:41, 7 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

I think we should distinguish Slavic gords that were build since about VI-VII a.d. from much older fortified villages (like Biskupin built by Lusitian Culture) - Slavic gords and much older fortified villages have nothing in common!! The only common thing is that both are made from wood (but it was GREAT FOREST COUNTRY!! - what type of material should they use when there were millions of wood out there :)) So if there is nothing in common than I think we should split gord into twho different records. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.139.8.24 (talk) 18:01, 10 February 2007 (UTC).Reply

Well, they were often combined, weren’t they? For example, Budeč was originally prehistoric settlement from the Bronze Age, but then in the Slavic times it was fortified into a mountain-top gord.

Ceplm (talk) 15:05, 15 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

I believe You wanted to write 'grod'.

no, grod is much later Polish and Lusitian form of Slavic gord. -or- before consonant changed into -ro-/ra/oro in different Slavonic groups (thats why today Polish gród, Serbian grad and Russian gorod)

Be well

Actually Beograd is the Bosnian and Montenegrin name for Belgrade, from whom today's Beograd stole the model back in AD 1125. Only joking! It's better to list the two variants but it should primarily be in English as indeed this is written in English to communicate to English speakers. If I were to speak to you of a country called Sakartvelo, would you know where I meant BEFORE revising it? Be honest! :) Celt 29-01-06

Isn't having Nordic superfluous as the North Germanic languages are a branch of the Germanic language branch?

I think it is. I removed it. Kpalion 01:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC)Reply

The contents of that article don't significantly add to or differentiate themselves from this one. Any objections to merging? —Michael Z. 2006-09-22 02:15 Z

I have no objections. Merge away. Radagast83 23:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

When searching for references I found almost nothing for "Gord" so Imoved this article to "Grad (Slavic settlement)" as I found several references for the usage in the correct context. Jeepday (talk) 04:24, 29 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

In that case, shouldn't most of the numerous occurrences of "gord" in the text also be changed to "grad"?--Kotniski (talk) 18:04, 28 April 2008 (UTC)Reply

In fact, I find this article reads rather strangely. I can't decide whether it's about some specific type of fortified settlement, or about this particular set of related Slavic words. Are there some unique architectural features shared by the Lusatian and the much later Slavic grads, or is it just that they happen to be referred to by the same names in Slavic languages? --Kotniski (talk) 18:12, 28 April 2008 (UTC)Reply

The title of the article is Grad. In the text we read, however: "A typical gord was a group of wooden houses ... ", many times. Should not the title and the term used in the article coincide? --Jidu Boite (talk) 14:02, 3 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Yes (the article used to be titled "gord" - it probably wasn't rewritten when the title was changed).--Kotniski (talk) 19:34, 3 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

As far as I know, there are numerous cities in Armenia having the suffix of -kerta. Is this a Slavic loan, or is this a PIE cognate? (Slavic loan is rather improbable, as the Armenians built towns long time before the Slavs, at least 500 years). --Jidu Boite (talk) 14:05, 3 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

No idea (might be best to ask at pages dealing with Armenian topics). (Though the fact that they built towns much earlier doesn't necessarily mean that those particular names - or even those particular towns - are older.)--Kotniski (talk) 19:37, 3 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Slavs don't have any "armenian" loans. It is purest occult, nationalistic nonsense. Slavs have with Armenians so much in common as have current Germans with culture or language of Zimbabwe.

Is the plural form of this word grody? If so, it should be mentioned in the title and a redirect created. --Bermicourt (talk) 20:07, 2 April 2012 (UTC)Reply

Gard was old Slavic (especially Baltic, pre germanic (Venetic Slavic Wagrian; or "Variag") name of the Grad. But generally the word represented a root for many other things; Other transliteration was Gorod or Grad.

Grad / Gard / Gorod: castle, city and also a place. Ograd: "around"/rounded place (gardens) ograda; fence (around the gardens, around the castle: grad) graditi: "to build" ; zgraditi; to built (to finish it). Vgraditi; to build into. ograditi: "to build (around)" surround it with buildings, to bar in: fence, wall... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.182.116.61 (talk) 07:24, 8 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

I've reverted the good faithed PROD of the article. While I agree there's definitely some problems with original research in the article, the term or its variants is used in English literature. It's not a Polish neologism as then the word would be "grod" not "gord". Actually, that might be a better title, for example see here: [1].Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:11, 4 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Another example [2].Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:13, 4 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

• The current title is certainly problematic. I suggest renaming to Slavic fortified village (cf. de:Slawischer Burgwall). --Ghirla^-трёп- 05:26, 5 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

The basic difficulty is that all Slavic languages have some form of the word, so picking one sort of "privileges" one language over others. So I understand the logic behind the suggestion (it's also why I think the article was begun under "Gord" which is supposedly the proto-Slavic form). However, I think the word "village" in there is a bit misleading. Some of these fortified places were quite large. Maybe just "Slavic fort"? Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:07, 5 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

I have no problem with Slavic fort. The article Slavic dragon is named as it is for the same reasons. --Ghirla^-трёп- 06:58, 5 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the sources. I think the our concern is not language neutrality as much as usage and understanding. That is, as wikipedians, it is not our jobs to coin terms, or decide what they should be. Rather we should use the ones in common usage, and I think with a bias towards current scholarly work, at the same time to avoid wikipedia from being first, we shouldn't change terms as soon as an academic coins a better one. That being said, I think the problems with the article are the focus on language. What makes a gord different from any other of it's counterparts, except from being slavic? Presumably, there are other burgwalls? Although this seems to imply that simply burgwall implies Slavicness. Anyway, I don't see what makes it different from any other hill fort or burg. Of course, in the context of archaeology, hillforts are iron age settlements not any fort on a hill, and in fact, are not always on hills. So the terms themselves should not be given too much emphasis. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:27, 22 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

This article has two major issues, both stemming from total lack of reliable citations (refs about words I don't count). One: I suspect heavy original research, two: a big chunk of etymology does not belong here. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:07, 22 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Is gord used as an English word in even a single source? I can’t find any of these versions in the OED. I understand the desire for a neutral or ancestral name, but we can’t just make up a name for the subject if it is not in use.

Encyclopedia of Ukraine has an article Horod: Horod or hrad. A fortified settlement in Kyivan Rus’.”  —Michael Z. 04:35, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

I just had a short discussion with ChatGPT:

Q: what is the most common name for a slavic walled town

A: The most common name for a Slavic walled town is "kremlin." A kremlin is typically a fortified central complex found in historic Russian cities. The word "kremlin" comes from the Russian word "kreml," which means "fortress."

Q: what is the most common name in academic sources for a small Slavic fortified village

A: The most common name used in academic sources for a small Slavic fortified village is "grad." "Grad" is a Slavic word that means "fortified town" or "castle." This type of village would have been fortified for protection against invaders and would have typically been located in a strategically important area.

Q: what other names are there for this?

A:In addition to "grad," other names for a small Slavic fortified village include:

• "gorodok" (Russian), which means "small town"
• "grod" (Polish), which also means "fortress"
• "gradina" (Bulgarian) and "gradiste" (Serbian), which also mean "fortified ::* town"
• "krepost" (Russian), which means "fortress"
• "tvrđava" (Croatian) and "tvrđavica" (Serbian), which mean "fortress"
• "sadyba" (Ukrainian), which means "small fortification"

It's worth noting that depending on the Slavic language, different words might be used to describe different types of fortifications, such as castle, fortress, or stronghold.

Q: In English, which is the most common name for this out of gord, grad, gorod, horod, hrad, gorodok, horodok?

A: Out of the list of names provided, "grad" is the most commonly used term in English academic sources to refer to a small Slavic fortified village. "Gord" is also used but it is less common, the rest of the names are not commonly used in English academic sources, and may be more commonly used in specific Slavic languages.

Q: are any others nearly as common as grad?

A: "Gorod" (Russian) is also used in English academic sources to refer to a small Slavic fortified village, but not as commonly as "grad". "Gorodok" is also a term that is used but it's less common than "grad" and "gorod". "Hrad" is used specifically for fortified towns in Czech and Slovak, while "horod" and "horodok" are used more in Ukrainian and Belorussian.

It's worth noting that the name used may depend on the specific historical context and location of the fortified village being discussed, as well as the preference of the author or researcher.

We have yet to see how reliable this is, but one can construct much more focussed queries more easily than with Google Ngram. And never mind raw searches in Google Books or Scholar. —Michael Z. 04:39, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

It should not be difficult to trace how it appeared in english. Do scientific papers use it? Who introduced it? How was it built? It looks english but apparently isn't. Spending half the article discussing IE cognates is pointless, all the more since the word itself is of questionable existence, 161.230.125.227 (talk) 14:02, 25 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

In the etymology section of this article, the Belarusian (first in the list) is written in Cyrillic, while all others, latin-based languages nonwithstanding, are written in a romanization. Why is this? Thegkz (talk) 12:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply