Talk:Catiline

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The existing talk page (which was a total mess; it is actually impossible to follow any of the, now long-outdated, personal attacks made there to find any point, if any, that was being made) was removed to Talk:Catiline/Archive 1. As to the existing article, it relies too heavily on primary sources; a rewrite may be necessary. It is not as if we don't have decent books on the Catilinarian conspiracy, its characters, etc. Eg DH Berry, Cicero's Catilinarians (2020) and others. Ifly6 (talk) 19:29, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite was completed. Ifly6 (talk) 17:46, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A number of problems in the ancestral description. They are now relatively easy to discover due to DPRR's existence:

• The cited person, one Gnaeus Sergius Fidenas Coxo, as having been a consular ancestor in 380, is untrue. DPRR reports he was consular tribune. The difference is meaningful. See eg Drogula, Commanders and Command (UNC Press, 2015) on the early republic. The only Sergius elected to the consulship (ever), according at least to the fasti (the veracity of which also is questioned), was L Sergius Fidenas, the consul of 437 and 429.

• Nowhere in Sallust, the cited source, is Cn Sergius Fidenas Coxo noted as a consular ancestor to this Sergius. They are clansmen; but, by analogy, that Servius Tullius is a Tullius does not mean he is Cicero's forefather. (Not my joke. Cicero made this joke two thousand years ago.) We also cannot impute descent merely from the fact both were patricians. Even in the former Sergius' time, there could have been multiple branches of Sergii.

I don't like the idea of citing a website (maybe that's because of some lawyerly training) but the main genealogical text cited in DPRR is Zmeskal 2009, which I don't have a copy of and is regardless in German. It may be useful to consult it. Ifly6 (talk) 20:53, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I found a copy online, begrudgingly translated the German, and this was done. Ifly6 (talk) 17:45, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]