Talk:Bert Bell

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To-do list for Bert Bell: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2024-03-04 DCN = double-check needed CN = citation needed ; Pre-commissioner: I am just filling a history of his pre-commissioner days. Then I am going to stop editing and continue reading his biography. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 18:15, 11 April 2011 (UTC) Teams with strongest financial resource This term is different than the profitable teams. It took me awhile but the Redskins, apparently, had strong financial resources but they were not a profitable franchise. IOW, Marshall was rich. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 00:33, 13 April 2011 (UTC) eagles/steelers trading franchise stuff I became completely confused by all of this and it took me awhile to figure out what happened. But what I had to do was to provide inline citations for how things went down chronologically. So, I think, providing inline citations made it more difficult for me to provide a more simpler grammar free way to explain what happened in the body of the article. revenue sharing [edit] The concept of revenue sharing Bell created. But Rozelle made it the system it is today back in 1961. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 21:30, 13 April 2011 (UTC) The further reading link from philly.com will be used as a necessary duplicate citation to Bell saving the Packers because the other source, Coenen, is admittedly biased. TV section needs work. bill veeck was the first in 1952, cubs or white sox owner General [edit] get Outside the Lines up and use it as a source Match up grammar of sentences to inline citations and make sure its from the right book Bring in Pro Football Encyclopedia or Total football for single source of team records No source has explicitly analyzed it to the point but the LA Coliseum attendance was blowing the doors off the rest of the NFL in the 1940s not important ensure article is self-sufficient w respect to injury report, reserve and option clause, territorial rights book on Tim Mara - became bookie in 1922 at belmont GONY - p.24 book on GPM - The Redskins Encyclopedia book on Charles Bidwill no book exiss 60-40% explained it was a flat 5,000 ruck p 194 unanimous vote for franchise explained - Coenen 75% majority to change league constitution explained - Coenen executive meeting explained there is another kind of biography of Bell somewhere no he just did the foreword Cite check|date= end hobby ownership p. 28 Inside Pro football Jan 29, 1954 he got a 12 year contract - p. 16 Joe King, is that when he got raise to 50k a year? big stadiums - giants to yankee in 56, steelers to u of pitt and eagles to u of penn in 58 p. 17-18 joe king territorial rights - can't come into "area" and play on same day - 135 Willis reserve clause - 137 willis find out his first name, go to primary sources - Congress done bring in Bert Bell retirement plan in 1962 - find better source NEED RETIREMENT PLAN teams dates and owners that entered the league no leave that to history of nfl how much each franchise was bought for until 1960 still unclear on when each network got involved and also the b.s. book by the NFL says he graduated from Penn DOUBLE-CHECK Ross, Ross, if memory serves me right, writes Kemp went back to graduate. He did not. He want back to become an assistant coach. Brown also writes the AAFC gave Topping some choice players Penn [edit] narrow down who coached what and when done find out number of games he started and his win loss record not possible, ignore bring in Lud Wray as his teammate no bring in Franklin Field as oldest football stadium in U.S.? - its in Encyclopedia no, ignore bert's dad was trustee or trustee for life and the football team wanted him to be removed as A.D. - CN (citation needed) Semi-pro [edit] find out game he played against Thorpe, on what team MacCambridge 2009 looks to have corrected himself and should show him not graduating - DCN Philadelphia eagles (1933-1940) [edit] citation missing for de facto segregation need last person's name dropped before 1934 season Ray Kemp of the Pirates and Joe Lillard of the Cardinals were the last to play on December 3, 1933 Gridiron Gauntlet p. 2-3 , black player would be absent on 1934 rosters and for 11 seasons after that p. 2 need encyclopedia of eagles or whatever its called re the draft: there was a league rule as early as 1934 that said all players had to be graduates, which the Pirates broke in 1934 Pigskin p. 113 in 1926 the NFL created a rule no one could play in the NFL until their class had graduated GONY - p. 39no, that belongs in Joe Carr article 1st paragraph checked for citations matching sentences, stay away from introducing super bowl there Eagles moved to Municipal Stadium in what year p. 21 Joe king no, eagles section has enough off topic stuff already Pittsburgh Steelers (1940-1945) [edit] find history of Steelers of find out what Bert actually did there he did nothing, but more than Rooney Rooney worried about steelers going bankrupt in 1945 was either rathet, sullivan, claasen, Daley, Ratterman, or one of reference books on south side done all hell breaking loose was also in one of those books - i think it was in rathet's book got 1 source - probably a 2nd Steagles - Algeo (closed out) [edit] another differing account of Pennsylvania polka, Algeo p. 16 - 18 bell creates war time job prerequisite for Steagles p. 27 - 28 another account of which team wanted to play which team p. 31 bell creates offensive and defensive coordinators created for 1st time in nfl p. 81-82 tv networks want better night game lighting in 1956 p. 114 Steagles a box office smash trivia (tie games not count to 72 p. 156, nflpa recognized 68 p. 150-151, Kilroy in Life magazine in 1940's MEAN) 60-40 split or what? [edit] # 60-40 split Yost p. 66 is really for 1952. Willis p. 164 lists it 60-40 of gross - 15% of rental cost MacCambridge p. 39 60-40 split after allowing for rental cost Lyons p. 147 its a 60-40 split in 1949 RUCK p. 194 In 1941, Rooney argues it should be a 60-40 split instead of 5,000 flat fee Halas/Davis nothing Algeo nothing RUCK p. 276 it goes to 60-40 split after 1946 season NEW - 60-40 split "exists to this today" - probably yost oversimplifying, splitting of gate is not for encyc version, only good for stories about rainy games, etc. definition of what an nfl commissioner actually does or is supposed to do [edit] role of commissioner/president under Carr enhance popularity of the league - media - gold ticket was first handled to FDR in 1939, see GPM wife book ensures franchises follow rules - college eligibility, territorial rights, gambling expansion committee rules committee franchise disputes - schedule - all home teams wanted most popular opponents to visit (bears) Carr fends off that other league Carr weeds out the weak manages semipro leagues - though not explained - that's why Radovich could not get a job role of commissioner under Layden enhance popularity of the league - figurehead franchise disputes - schedule - poor - GPM/bell want home games, financial incentive to keep the nfl operating explain what czar of the nfl means - deals with semi-pro teams the AAFC was a failure as czar role of commissioner under bell enhance popularity of the league - media - all new: fights, cheap play, referees, sudden death overtime ensures franchises follow rules - college eligibility, territorial rights, gambling expansion committee - bell bs's congress rules committee franchise disputes - schedule - moved from mediate to arbitrate, others - crying ?? abets teams to be non-competitive off the field to be competitive on the field czar of the nfl, CFL, semi-pro teams disappear weeds out the week - thanks to GPM - Baltimore Colts first go round Bell only wanted football type only owners, did it became football first and football only? The overall role of the commissioner was to provide a core set of teams that were financially sound and numerically significant enough to enhance the NFL's popularity. Reintegration [edit] Peterson p. 170 calls strode and or Washington liars check Ross for source Filchock-Hapes gambling scandal [edit] cleanup the italicized words, explain injury report in footnotes or in body make sentences fit citations what a freaking disaster, Peterson begins calling Hapes, Merle Mapes on page 159 dealt with AAFC-NFL merger (1946-1949) [edit] get Tim Mara in there as objecting to it as late as 1948 - its in Lyon's book somewhere no don't here Littlewood pg. 170 AAFC approaches nfl early 1940 NFLPA [edit] FORGET ALL the authors, go straight to the supreme court case. all the authors are totally screwy. Lyons was like, oh, he came from enlistment to the AAFC. one of the other authors is...oh, he played for five years for the lions then went to the AAFC and does not mention military service... bring in his brother as moving to penn supreme court at such and such a year bring in his brother advising him on the Radovich case bring in the emotional duress bell suffered as a result of this case...this seems to be the most difficult part of his life NFL team scheduling (1948-1952) [edit] background when he took over why he chose schedule the way he did his son's reaction when he ceased stopped creating the schedules for entire league this appears to be closed out Television era (1939, 1949-1958) [edit] first ever tv sets in x year, find suitable jumping off point halas the visionary - follows Wrigley, number of stations 1949 Chicago championship game LA rams attendance blackouts and it came from Halas show baseball's incompetence?? saves Green Bay ??? first ever radio same page but writer does not put it in context, appears to be first nationwide radio broadcast, the 1934 thanksgiving game between Chicago and Detroit was held on 94 stations Peterson p. 123. 1st nationwide radio 1940 champ game peter 127, probably matches the other guy too not important for this [American Needle vs. NFLP an unincorporated association called the NFL] NFL Encyclopedia 1982 Tom Bennett History of Pro Football 1963 Harold Claassen coax had not crossed the Rockies as late as labor day 1950 - Lyons p. 170 spent over 200k on blackout lawsuit p. 30 joe king tv timeouts introduced in 1958, in powers Coenen 3% - 8% needs reevaluation joe Labrum was an assistant nfl commissioner as late as 196 p. 196 Danzig Bergmann, Ted; with Skutch, Ira (2002). The DuMont Television Network: What Happened?. Lanham, MD:Scarecrow Press. ISBN 0-8108-4270-X Hess, Gary Newton (1979). An Historical Study of the DuMont Television Network. New York:Ayer Publishers. -microform Weinstein, David (2004). The Forgotten Network: DuMont and the Birth of American Television. Philadelphia:Temple University Press. ISBN 1-59213-245-6 Sources to look at [edit] Staudohar, Paul D. The Sports Industry and Collective Bargaining JLE 86-3645 IMPORTANT Herskowitz, Mickey. The Golden Age of Football. JFF 91-828 Tarret, William S. Timetables of Sports History. JFF 97-2333 Carrol, John M. Red Grange and the Rise of Modern Football. U.S. Congress. Telecasting of Professional Sports Contests. JLE 88-2874 U.S. Congress. Blackout of Sporting Events on Television. JLE 76-693 Berry, Robert C. Labor Relations in Professional Sports. JLE 88-2874 IMPORTANT PB, the Paul Brown story Paul Brown JFE 80-3346 The Gray Flannel Pigskin William Henry Paul JFD 75-1926 triple-check Saturday Evening Post December 12, 1936 George Dunscomb "$6,000 for a touchdown: George halas of the Chicago bears tells of costs of running a pro team Bob Gill on semi-pro teams IMPORTANT Current Biography Yearbook, 1950 IMPORTANT NYT Magazine, November 23, 1958 Roone Arledge IMPORTANT Saturday evening post December 3rd, 1955 Becker, Carl M. (2001). Home and away : the rise and fall of professional football on the banks of the Ohio, 1919-1934. Whittingham, all books Encyclopedia's Note: The regular season records of the teams since their inception and the number of the seasons they played in the NFL were, respectively, Bears, - , Cardinals, - , Dodgers, - , Eagles, - , Giants, - , Lions, - , Packers, - , Pirates, - , Redskins, - , Baltimore Colts ??????? not covering, article is too big NFLPA (1946?, 1955?6) [edit] background of why congress got involved in antitrust done 2 sources, yay define reserve cause moved to different Wikipedia article define option cause moved to different Wikipedia article explain that the draft which was monopolistic was in danger and it was more important than a union show owners who were against union, halas and marshall I would much rather get some kind of book on the "history of labor movements in the united states" involved here. personal life [edit] he spent all his money on his teams</s? he could not afford to buy a home until such a such a year his wife was devout catholic she made him quit drinking not important in this, maybe could for his wife's article he worked the phones at his home non stop, worked 18 hours a day ....reevaluate..looks good anecdotal stuff Tim Mara died he had heart attack he converted to Catholicism and his daughter said it was because of his wife, and or Rooney spoke with Rooney nearly every day - new 8/15/2001..maybe good to include he was parochial with respect to Philadelphia - he kept offices in philly he teased Rooney about crowd size 2 instances of him saying if there is any place he would like to die that it would be at a ball game in process of buying eagles change section title from family life and death to personal life and death ? son on possible perception of racism, Tunnell, and he goes to hall of fame Pervin p. 25 daughter...games...impartial..producer his sons' careers...their views on commercialism of the nfl... Legacy and honors [edit] is NFL introducing revenue sharing in 1962 really part of his legacy? the NFL draft's implementation did not show immediate results -get other source, cleanup grammar transition better to on any given Sunday bring in Bert Jr. worked for the NFL he was afraid of flying - Herskowitz one of his sons quits over the commercialization of the super bowl Salary and length [edit] This is covered 1957 hearings before congress. A total of 4 raises. By CH, he had 12 year contract. start after filchock 1947 1948 1949 1950 1951 January 22, increased from $30,000 to $40,000 http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=A0QKAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2EoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6517,975049&dq=bert+bell&hl=en Bibliography [edit] Bert wrote, or co-wrote at least 1 book, and possibly 2 books before he passed away Bert also wrote at least one article for the Saturday Evening Post - ascertain. External Links [edit] put in links to judiciary cases ? no violence of the nfl [edit] valid subsection? still an extremely controversial topic today no, can stick it in television era controversy over officiating [edit] valid topic? WOULD be a nice tie in with shorty and Layden, still a controversial topic today no, put in television era Definitions required [edit] General manager President Executive Committee Rules Committee Expansion Committee got all in by-laws of constitution bookmarked Bert's Personality [edit] hated to fly Charles, art, and bert used to sit back, watch, and laugh as GPM and Tim fought - Tim just liked to fight - DeVito p. 93 no author really adequately explains how unselfish Bell was. Since no author says it then I can not say it, but I can provide an example of it and let the reader know that the owners became multimillionaires and Bell could not buy his own home until the early '50s. lots of stuff here Formatting of names of books [edit] # need correct title names and authors of all books need page numbers associated with chapters if not entire book is pertinent Whittingham - Bill Dudley Chapter Legacy and Honors [edit] find: The setting of his passing was seen in the media as befitting a man who had dedicated most of his adult life to the success of the NFL. However, to his children, they had lost not a pioneer in the NFL, but rather their father. ...keywords should be "pioneer in.." the NFL or in football..no luck legacy stuff is important to reevaluate to see if going to far Sources to be sorted out [edit] what were the years bert bell was the coach at temple university - "citation needed|date=August 2011|reason=Another source says he was coach at Temple in 1930 and 1931 only - I think its MacCambridge 2009" - there is a college bibliography on football and there is one source from temple university that is unpublished and hidden in the university's archives or the temple university's library<....name to follow no its published and its no good...name of college bibliography on football to follow - hopefully that temple university unpublished work will have the answer... no its no good The actual wording of the article, today, makes sense and seems logical. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 21:28, 17 August 2011 (UTC) This says he was out of pro football in 1932: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=SAgNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MWoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5910,1905924&dq=bert+bell&hl=en why did bert bell not get any money from his dad to buy the eagles??? citation needed|date=August 2011|reason=Lyons points out, using one of Bert's sons as a source, that Bert's father had refused to lend him money much earlier than Bert's endeavor to buy the Eagles. this is clean...Lyons is writing about bell's father cutting him off from any inheritance p. 166 in what years did bell get salary raises and for how much? "citation needed|date=August 2011|reason=sources conflict on when his contract changed and if salary increases occurred. The NFL/NFL HOF books, IMHO, looks to bias it towards him receiving "WHOPPING" (yes, they use that word whopping) raises. The NFL is NOT NPOV." 66.234.33.8 (talk) 21:40, 17 August 2011 (UTC) The NFL by-laws were amended on January 16, 1948, and granted Bell the sole discretion, in perpetuity as commissioner, to unilaterally develop the scheduling for all teams in the NFL. Maule, 1964, p. 242.Ruck; Paterson and Weber, 2010, p. 248.MacCambridge, 2005, p. 40.MacCambridge writes Bell created the schedules for his entire stay as commissioner. MacCambridge, 2005, p. 40. - citation needed|date=May 2011|reason=this is a cleanup tag. I have to go back and look and MacCambridge p. 40 and Ruck to see if they mention January 16...maybe this needs to be pulled back, how important is Jan. 16, by-laws, and perpetuity for an encyclopedia article...OTOH, they NEVER CHANGED constitution by-laws 66.234.33.8 (talk) 21:42, 17 August 2011 (UTC)...they never changed constitution but they added ammendmants, the in perpetuity for scheduling was for while he was commissioner and he probably had a 5 year contract so he was granted scheduling for 5 years....otoh....maybe not...i'd have to see the ammendmants...put in notes covered, MacCambridge screwed up In 1952, Bell introduced a rule, which was originally advocated by Tim Mara in 1933, to decide tie games by introducing an overtime period citation needed|date=August 2011|reason=Maule disputes this. Mara was clearly there in 1933 but DeVito needs double-check. This rule should have been created in 1947. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 07:17, 18 August 2011 (UTC) fixed Madison ave: The game further increased football's marketability to television advertising and the drama associated with the sudden-death overtime was the catalyst.ref name="Gifford; with Richmond, 2008, p. 213."Gifford; with Richmond, 2008, p. 213. and Patton quoting Kyle Rote about 1956 nfl champions...the score of that game was 47-7 Peterson (p. 201) uses Patton verbatim and quotes him. This sequence of events in the transaction have been nicknamed as the Pennsylvania Polka by sports historians Algeo, 2006, p. 16., and its catalyst was Rooney wanted to financially bail out Bell citation needed|date=August 2011|reason=looking for confirmation of Ruck - Rooney 374/713 "Rooney had bailed Bell when he owned the Eagles, finally bringing him on board as the Steeler's co-owner." - it never hit me this way before or I am misreading it now - this conflicts with Bell's son's interpretation. Bell responded to these charges by recounting his injuries in his playing days and saying it was part of the game.citation needed|date=August 2011|reason=Lyons, but COPY-EDIT required for replacing the verbs saying and take out in last 2 sentences and segway into next sentence, whole paragraph needs reorganization AND also SEE SPORTS ILLUSTRATED 1957 interview with Bert Bell and ALSO SEE SPORT ILLUSTRATED article with an NFL player that disputes Graham. Also See Maraniss on rule 14a or 8A in 1956 ...lets look at criticizing officials w respect to new contract w CBS. Umphlett says Penn was eastern conference winners. Lyons says they were collegiate champions in 1924 http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/29/sports/creighton-miller-79-lawyer-and-notre-dame-halfback.html vs. PB. Brown has it w Miller and Ratterman Algeo says Bert was a devout catholic in 1933 on p. 16...could be good to bring in GPM quote from PB about next mtg in Rome suspending operations during war, DeVito vs. Algeo p. 30 Hibner vs. Lyons on favorite of rose bowl...double-check Hibner done salary and length brown vs. coenen and staudohar: - Paul Brown's interpretation is probably ex post facto. The unionization was probably already underway when he discovered the letter to Ratterman. Need to go back to Rattterman now. The idea of a union of football players The animosity directed at Bell was either due to a long-standing feud among Quaker footballers and fans over their inability to get his father removed from his position as athletic director,citation needed|date=August 2011|reason=unknown location, somethings screwy, Danzig points out that the Quakers during the tenure of John C. was their best teams ever, why would they want him removed? How could he be second in creating the NCAA unless u of penn was a great team?, Bert's play, or some other intangible reasons. Lyons p. 20 Ray Kemp When he visited the players each year at training camp, he also impressed how important it was to conduct themselves properly on the field, i.e. fights, tv era, put here for now Need Saturday Evening Post Dec 3, 1955 and Time magazine cover story on Kilroy w respect to Bell fining players for conduct on their field. need to look at Willis re: nflpa and benefit double check if it was December 1945 or January 1946 Coenen on p. 182 says it was 1945 for league jumping rule citation needed|date=April 2011|reason=he sold his share to Barney McGinley, see 75 Years pension plan: citation needed|date=August 2011|reason=by who, on what date, when was it's name changed to Bell-Rozelle or Rozelle-Bell or did they phrase it incorrectly here: Oversight hearings on National Football League labor-management dispute : hearings before the Subcommittee on Labor-Management Relations of the Committee on Education and Labor, House of Representatives, Ninety-fourth Congress, first-session, held in Washington, D.C., September 29 and October 2, 1975. JLE 78–747 (HSSL) As president of the club, Bell handled more of the contract negotiations than Rooney and Bell was considered more stingy with the players than Rooney. fistfights between players were a common occurrence during games citation needed|date=August 2011|reason=Ratterman p. 125 covers assault and battery not fistfights common occurrence. The actual quote should read something like, fistfights were as common in football then as they are now. It should be a book written about 1983 +- 3 years but it is definitely not Carroll nor Hessions. So its Powers, Whittingham, or Patton tv part 1 tv part 2 summer of 1950. Narberth, rest of his life. This transient lifestyle was due to necessity, as Bell was not financially secure enough to afford a home."Lyons, 2010, pp. 166-167." From above, "Bell was given a three-year contract by the NFL at $20,000 (presently, $224,889) per year" and he could not afford a house???...No, the success of the merger and the way he asserted himself during the process and the fact that he was publically acclaimed in the media and was rewarded with the position of commissioner after the merger emboldened him. That's the missing piece; the merger was a financial turning point in his life. This needs to go up to to the main section as one of the aftermaths of the AAFC-NFL merger. Notable sources completely ignored because their claims are overwhelmingly disproved [edit] Algeo says bell was a devout catholic way back in 1933, p. 16 nbc.com reporting wray let go in 1935 one implementation of Lyons on date of Bell's passing (1 is included) Ruck on Rooney trying to change the visitor's share of the gate from a % to a solid amount or vice versa - not because of whether or not it was a % or a solid amount or vice versa, but because Ruck is trying to credit Rooney with the first implementation of revenue sharing - revenue sharing goes to Bill Veeck, Davis on Halas has it, IMHO, dead on Lyons screws up when and how the draft was put forth. Check last edit before this one. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 14:01, 2 September 2011 (UTC) <- save that timestamp MacCambridge, et. al. write Bell had a 5 year timeframe to develop the NFL schedules even though he only 4 years left as NFL commissioner at the time. Yost p. 63. claiming Bell was not good w television in early years. His critique could have been useful except Yost claims that Bell should have televised all, both home and away, games which is blatantly ridiculous. Yost also totally screws up some facts on that same page. - ignored Typo fixes required [edit] publisher's name of GAOF golden age of football ISBN RG red grange Wuulfson title of Current Biography Yearbook, 1950 title of NYT Magazine, November 23, 1958 Saturday evening post - Halas, page numbers and CCIX Sources book is closed on [edit] Algeo Devito Hibner Levy Littlewood Peterson Ruck Staudohar Weyand Reevaluations required [edit] 1945 and 1946 television blackouts Yost on Bell being bad on implementing TV policy early on...need context...need to see if Yost is explicit in describing his failures. If Yost does not come up with something concrete, then he must be hammered. Content [edit] make aafc nfl fit more chronologically? iow, put some of it in steelers philadelphia eagles, any way to fix that section? 201111088 [edit] <!--off topic and 20 years after he died--> Bell's version of the draft not only limited players salaries, but it all also "penalized" players by forcing them to play for the worst teams and it was eventually ruled, years after his passing, as being unconstitutional.<ref name="Staudohar, 1986, p. 79-81.">[[Smith v. Pro Football, Inc.]], 420 F. Supp. 738, 593 F. 2d 1173 (1978). Staudohar, 1986, pp. 79–81.</ref> <!--off topic and 20 years after he died--> <!--off topic--> His thoughts on TV revenue-sharing would eventually, through his advice to [[Bob Howsam]],<ref name="Davis, 2008, p. 92.">Davis, 2008, p. 92.</ref> find its way to Rozelle, who successfully lobbied to get the [[Sports Broadcasting Act of 1961]] passed to legalize revenue sharing,<ref name="Davis, 2008, p. 129–130.">Davis, 2008, pp. 129–130.</ref> which had been formerly illegal.<ref name="Davis, 2008, p. 108.">Davis, 2008, p. 108, 129.</ref> This allowed Rozelle to implement league-wide sharing of TV revenue for all NFL games starting with the [[1962 NFL season]].<ref name="Davis, 2008, p. 130.">Davis, 2008, p. 130.</ref> This revenue-sharing would assist small-market teams, such as the Green Bay Packers, by giving them the financial resources to obtain the talent necessary to give them the potential to win a game against any large-market team.<ref name="Davis, 2008, p. 128–129.">Davis, 2008, pp. 128–129.</ref> <!--/off topic--> Despite Bell's achievements and acclaim, at league meetings to determine Bell's successor, Bell's "good friend",<ref name="Lyons, 2010, p. 192.">Lyons, 2010, p. 192.</ref> Carol Rosenbloom, and Halas were adamant in rejecting any candidate who was viewed as maintaining the status quo with respect to NFL policies.<ref name="DeVito, 2006, p. 150.">DeVito, 2006, p. 150. (cf. Rooney; Halaas and Masich p. 93)</ref> [[Pete Rozelle]] was eventually elected the third NFL commissioner. claiming it would be considered dishonest to the paying customers.<ref name="Yost, 2006, p. 63.">Yost, 2006, p. 63.</ref> The NFLPA did not formally become a union until registering with the U.S. Department of Labor in 1968.<ref name="Staudohar, 1986, p. 63.">Staudohar, 1986, p. 63.</ref>

it's okay. i think it's solid. i'm happy with it. i am sure copy editing could always make it better. but it's the best i could do. as far as a long ago complaint that maybe it does not show bell's compassion for the game, i dunno, i think i have portrayed him as very, to extremely, passionate to the success of the nfl. i think it meets good article criteria, however i have no time to reply to good article judges so i had to remove my request it be considered a good article. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:03, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Bert Bell/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Resolute (talk · contribs) 03:36, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

General

• Images are good
  • Not a GA requirement, but alternative text for images is recommended
• References look good.
  • Spotcheck shows they support the prose without any close paraphrasing.

• I wont use this to hold up the nomination, but in general, I find the language in the article unnecessarily complex. The author of the article has an impressive vocabulary, but I think it will confuse many readers and therefore cause them to lose interest. The first paragraph of the Philadelphia Eagles section is a good example of this. But I would probably oppose a FA nomination on this basis.

Okay, I will rewrite Ijustreadbooks (talk) 06:46, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is a long one, so will take some time to complete...

Okay I rewrote that first paragraph. That first paragraph was atrocious. I deleted a 1000 bytes from it. The whole Eagles section is a total disaster. I need major research there. It's just really bad. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:56, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

• "Bell played football at the University of Pennsylvania, and as quarterback for the Quakers, he led his team to the 1917 Rose Bowl" - I initially assumed that he led the team to a win in the Rose Bowl. Perhaps clarify slightly to "he led his team to an appearance in the 1917 Rose Bowl"?

The genius fixed this. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 04:00, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Small nitpick: "During the Golden Age of Television, he tailored the game's rules to strengthen its appeal to mass media, and he enforced a blackout policy of locally televised home contests to safeguard ticket receipts." - the middle "he" is unnecessary. "During the Golden Age of Television, he tailored the game's rules to strengthen its appeal to mass media and enforced a blackout policy..."

The genius fixed this. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 04:02, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

• "His father, a Quaker (c' 1884) during the early days of American football..." - I have no idea what (c' 1884) means, nor do I see how his father being a Quaker connects to the early days of American football. Can this be clarified somewhat? (I later realized that he played for the Penn Quakers and graduated with the class of 1884, but the lack of a wikilink to put "Quaker" in context and the shorthand for class makes this very confusing to someone not deeply familiar with either the school or the meaning of the shorthand)

User:Go Phightins fixed this.Ijustreadbooks (talk) 04:05, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

University of Pennsylvania

• "Bell entered Penn in the fall of 1914,[15] as an English major, and joined Phi Kappa Sigma." - The commas introduce unnecessary pauses. I'd probably remove them and move cite 15 to the end of the sentence.
• "...Bell temporarily capitulated sole possession of his quarterbacking duties until he conclusively reclaimed his position in the eight game..." - Not the slightest clue what this means. "Capitulated" is an unnecessarily complicated word in this context, and I have no idea what "the eight game" is, nor is it explained how he lost it.
• "Penn finished with a record of 7–2–1, 10th seed in the east." - 10th seed in the east of what?
• "After the war ended, Bell arrived back in the US in March 1919 with a discharge soon to be." - Soon to be what?

Early Career

• "Bell assembled the Stanley professional football team in 1920, but he disbanded it due to the negative publicity produced by the Black Sox Scandal." - Is Stanley a place, a company or what? Also, it is unclear how the Black Sox Scandal would impact a professional football team in an undetermined location. Finally, did the team ever play? It is implied they did not.

OK, I will have to reevaluate the syntax.Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• "Bell was then an employee of the Ritz-Carlton in Philadelphia and he tried his hand as a stock broker and lost $50,000..." - His employment with Ritz-Carlton and his failure at the stock market do not appear related. Should be broken into separate sentences.

Agreed, bad job by me. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's all for now. I will continue with the review tomorrow. Regards, Resolute 03:36, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing...

Philadelphia Eagles

• " Day's later, his suggestion to bestow the winner of the NFL championship game with the Ed Thorp Memorial Trophy was affirmed." - I suspect that apostrophe on "Day's" is misplaced. It is also unnecessary as it provides no real useful context to when the trophy was affirmed. All the reader knows is that it happened at some point after Bell married, which happened some point after the 1933 season ended.
• "Contemporaneously, a de facto racial segregation occurred in the NFL and African Americans would not return until 1947." - Unclear relevance. This seems randomly placed. Did Philly have any notable black players in 1933 that were forced off the team, for instance? ("Contemporaneously" is also one of those complicated words used unnecessarily.)

Agreed, bad job by me. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• "In 1934, the Eagles finished with a 4–7 record,[48] and the Cincinnati Reds went bankrupt." - Unclear relevance. Why is Cincinatti's bankruptcy important to Bell?

Agreed, bad job by me. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• "In December, an application for a franchise in Los Angeles was obstructed by Bell and Rooney as they deemed it too far of a distance to travel for games." - I was left wondering who Rooney was, since you do not note he was the owner of the Steelers until the following section.
• The interjections about his marriage and birth of children are non sequiturs that don't fit the rest of the section at all. They might be better located in a personal life section that includes his later home and conversion to Catholicism. A paragraph on his being a published author could also fit there.

Agree on personal life section. Absolutely disagree, with emotion, to give him any credit for being a published author. 'The Story of Professional Football in Summary' is not a real book. It's propaganda and marketing in response to the U.S. Congress investigating the NFL. Everything else he wrote is marketing in favor of the NFL or to counteract negative publicity. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pittsburgh Steelers

• "During the training camp of the Steelers' inaugural season, Bell was buoyant with optimism about the team's prospect, but he became crestfallen after Rooney denigrated the squad and flippantly remarked that they looked like the "[s]ame old Steelers" (SOS)." - How can the team be the "same old Steelers" if it is also their inaugural season?

Agreed, bad job by me. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• "...and for coaches with at least five years in the NFL, it was the worst record ever (as of the 2013 season)." - Improper tense. it is the worst record of all-time (as of the 2013 season)". For that matter, how can the record be as of a season that has not yet been played? These should all be "as of the 2012 season".
• "His first daughter and last child, Jane Upton, was born several months later." - Several months after what? There's no context here.

Agreed, bad job by me. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• "By 1943, 40% of the NFL rosters had been drafted into the United States Armed Forces for World War II, and this shortage could have been, but was not, eradicated by reintegration." - Editorializing. The comment on reintegration is POVish and lacks context.

Complicated, I will have to reevaluate.

• "Compounding Bell's problems, Arch Ward organized the AAFC in 1944 to displace the NFL's sovereignty in professional football." - AAFC should be fully spelled out here. In general, links used in the lead should also be used in the body, and given how deep into the article the AAFC is introduced, simply using the acronym here is a little confusing.

Agreed, bad job by me. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• "Furthermore, by the end of 1945, the Steelers were in its most economically perilous situation in its history" - Suggestion only, but in general, North American teams use the collective plural. Probably should be "...the Steelers were in their most economically perilous situation in their history."

Fair, no biggie, seems like personal preference. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

NFL Commissioner

• "Layden's perceived conflict of interest concerning the AAFC[83] led to his firing in January 1946." - Context required - what was Layden's conflict of interest?

Agreed, bad job by me. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• "On the eve of the 1946 championship game, Bell was notified that Merle Hapes and Frank Filchock of the Giants had been implicated in a bribing scandal." - The Giants have not been introduced at this point. This should be fully linked as New York Giants.

Agreed, bad job by me. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

NFL-AAFC merger

• "The primary impediment in an AAFC-NFL merger was in making the requests of Paul Brown amenable to the NFL owners,[116] but Bell gathered enough support to effectuate a compromise with the AAFC." - No context. What were Brown's requests, and why were they an impediment?

Agreed, however, this is a poor research problem or sources may be unclear. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Marketing of the NFL

• "In 1950, Bell originated a blackout rule into the NFL which forbid all teams to televise their home games within a 75 mile radius of their stadium - except for the Rams." - Is there any particular reason why the Rams were exempt?

Agreed, bad job by me. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• "However, preceding 1951..." - The link doesn't reduce confusion here. This should be "However, preceding the 1951 season..."

Legacy and honors

• I am a little concerned with the editorializing in this section. Much of it reads as the article author's opinion rather than that of the sources. Particularly: "Bell's ability to mediate disputes was unparalleled in the history of the NFL.[177] One of the best things the owners ever did was to designate Bell with the responsibility to construct the league schedule." - Who said this, and what makes their opinion authoritative?

Overall

I'm going to place on hold, as I think most issues should be easily addressable. Regards, Resolute 03:02, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

 Done with pretty much everything; if I didn't do something, I left a note in the edit summary as to why. Thanks. Go Phightins! 20:03, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent work, thanks! Hopefully Ijustreadbooks returns with their sources and can add the final pieces of context you couldn't, but I don't see anything that was removed holding up this nomination. As such, I am passing the nomination. Cheers! Resolute 23:32, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I will return and we will have to go through the whole process again. I only have one hangup with what Phightins did. But I can't believe he did what he did so fast (he must be a genius), I thought it would take me 6months. The latter part of the Philadelphia Eagles section is, from a research standpoint, a complete disaster. I am going to have to get bloody and go down to Philly and dig stuff up with new sources. I know the sources exist and I know where they are. I just have to access those sources. Forget about the other complaints (those are for great editors and writers to handle), the missing story between 1937 and 1939 is just a total disaster. Some people are great writers and editors, I am not. I will get that research done.Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As for anything that happened outside of 1937-1939, I just might have deleted a citation accidentally. I have them all ...somewhere. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:49, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To get this puppy up to FA by next Super Bowl would be great, although I do not have the skills to do it an as editor. But I'll worry about that later. First order of business is to handle that missing timeframe between 1937 and 1939. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:51, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you need any help, feel free to ping me at my talk. Go Phightins! 19:07, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, what a disaster. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First paragraph needs major copy edit - that will not be easy. The fourth paragraph is a complete joke - need major research to be done. Atrocious job in this section. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:26, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"His father was an attorney who served a term as the Pennsylvania Attorney General."

My citation does not really support this. Need a fix on a better source. Notified editor who made the change and requested he provide a better source. Ijustreadbooks (talk) 04:37, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, technically speaking, your source does not support that. For all anyone knows, Bell Sr. changed his mind and did not serve and your source simply did not point this out. For the record, however, the important thing is that Bell Sr. did serve, and this is well-documented in numerous official state documents from the AG office with his name prominently listed as AG.

I changed the sentence to concentrate on the important issue: Bell Sr. served a term as state AG. How he got there isn't too important to an article about the son. As it is, your source was a book about the history of football, and the author did not bother to doublecheck how things were done in Pennsylvania politics in 1911. PA had always had an appointed AG until around 1980, when the law was changed and the office became elective.

I have been spending the past week cleaning up and greatly expanding the whole PA AG topic, adding several articles, and numerous more are on the way. As part of the cleanup I've been finding minor little falsehoods in related articles, like this one. So for your sake I will create an article on Bell Sr. later today, sooner than I expected to, and I will provide there several citations, including his NYT obituary and at least one official PA state document with a brief bio, both of which mention that he was appointed. Look for Bell Sr.'s name to become a blue link on the article page.

In addition, earlier in his career, Bell Sr. had been appointed Philadelphia DA to fill out someone's unfinished term, and then he ran and was elected back to the same office. Choor monster (talk) 11:56, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

 Done

I have not been involved in Wikipedia for a few years so I will have to dig up my username. I really do not like "Bell astutely argued" in the introduction. No one reads the article, even less no one writes on the talk page. So, I do not see any problem with removing the word astutely. I have looked at that "astutely" for quite some time. There are all kinds of wikipedia rules - which I know nothing about. But, I am going to remove that word astutely before the end of the year. I am sure that I was the one that wrote that, but you just can not put the word "astutely" in an introduction. It's just wrong. I just must have made a mistake. 66.234.58.130 (talk) 07:24, 30 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I made the change. 66.234.58.130 (talk) 10:44, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"He survived to oversee the 'Greatest Game Ever Played' and to envision what the league would become in the future." I do not really like this in the introduction because of what I wrote here "to envision what the league would become in the future". That statement is supported by an anecdotal statement via the current footnote 157 from Raymond Berry. But I really do not like that kind of things because anyone can say anything. I want to trim it down to "He survived to oversee the 'Greatest Game Ever Played'" and maybe combine that statement with another sentence in the paragraph. I will have to think about this.

Oh, I know my username - ijustreadbooks -, but i do not feel like recovering my password.

I think I want to delete the whole sentence: "He survived to oversee the "Greatest Game Ever Played" and to envision what the league would become in the future." The sentence really makes no sense to me. 66.234.58.130 (talk) 00:31, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence is OK in the body of the article. But I really do not want it in the introduction. 66.234.58.130 (talk) 00:33, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]