Talk:Urban-type settlements in Ukraine

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On 27 October 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from List of urban-type settlements in Ukraine to Urban-type settlements in Ukraine. The result of the discussion was moved.

It's not made clear in this article whether we are talking about urban-type settlements in the sense of local governments/administrative divisions or if we're simply talking about them in the sense of territorial settlemets. Can this be clarified. --Criticalthinker (talk) 14:39, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This has never been made clear. Is this a list of urban-type settlements in the sense of local governments or in the sense of settlement/territorial division? --Criticalthinker (talk) 05:39, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure what your question is. In Ukraine, urban-type settlement is a legal status. If you put a question like this, it is probably a division. It can be for example upgraded to a town.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:51, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I asked this because on the Populated places in Ukraine articles, it says this:

"Unlike cities, urban-type settlements do not necessarily have an associated settlement council. While some are governed by local settlement councils, others are administered from the district or city level of governance."

This seems to state that not every urban-type settlement is governed by a settlement council, in which case I wasn't sure what this aricle was a list of. --Criticalthinker (talk) 09:02, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I believe every settlement has a mayor or an equivalent executive authority.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:57, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Urban-type settlement may help as well. However, in any case, an urban-type settlement is a locality which has a status of an urban-type settlement, which was given by the parliament of Ukraine (or inherited from the Ukrainian SSR).--Ymblanter (talk) 14:59, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

But that's not what the article I linked to said. It clearly says that not every urban-type settlement locality/populated place has an associated local urban-type settlement council. So is that fact incorrect? The article clearly says that at the 2001 Census, for instance, that while there were 890 urban-tpye settlements, there were only 783 settlement councils. --Criticalthinker (talk) 11:46, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably it is correct, but it does not contradict to what I said.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:56, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not trying to argue, though it can't be possible to have a mayor or executive authority without a council, right? I don't think my question was all that complicated, and I'm still not sure it's been answered. Is this article a list of urban-type settlement councils and urban-type settlement localities, or just a list of the former (councils)? --Criticalthinker (talk) 14:26, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Let me try again. An urban-type settlement is a locality which has been granted a status of urban-type settlement. Executive authority and a council are in this case immaterial. The article is a list of such localities.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:47, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The list itself is kind of a mess. There’s a bunch of extraneous crosswiki links to the Ukrainian Wikipedia articles for each settlement, the populations are randomly included on some and not on others, and the native table of contents doesn’t function properly with the custom subsections. I’m thinking of just converting it to normal subsections with bullet point lists inside. Thoughts? If there’s no opposition, I’ll start working on the reformatting. HappyWith (talk) 22:02, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

First, we now have articles on all urban-type settlements of Ukraine (with a possible exception of Crimea), so we do not need Ukrainian links. Second, a couple of days ago Zelenskyy signed a law which abolished urban-type settlements in Ukraine, Whereas I have not yet seen a document showing what happens to them (presumably some promoted to cities, some downgraded to rural localities), it does not make sense anymore to have a list on a given date - we probably should list all localities which used to be urban-type settlements ever, and indicate the dates. Ymblanter (talk) 22:18, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I’m thinking we could have efn notes next to any urban type settlements that weren’t always urban-type settlements between 81 and 23, specifying the relevant timeframe. HappyWith (talk) 22:33, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've made the edit to change it to a bullet-point list. Only problem is, now the article is very vertical, with tons of unnecessary whitespace. There must be some way to use columns and a floating TOC to make it more navigable, though I'm not sure exactly how. HappyWith (talk) 23:41, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nvm, fixed it. Now all that needs to be done is the notes for the dates. HappyWith (talk) 23:46, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is this really true? I’ve seen articles on Ukrainian settlements (ex: Pokrovske (urban-type settlement)) that mention them being given urban-type settlement status before 1981. The source linked to support the 1981 claim in this article is a source that I’ve had trouble translating to figure out exactly what it's saying. HappyWith (talk) 16:20, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am pretty sure there were urban-type settlements in Ukraine before 1981, but may be the status was discontinued at some point and reestablished in 1981, or there were some other caveats, I do not know. When I have time I will try to have a closer look. Ymblanter (talk) 18:35, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the designation "urban-type settlement" was officially adopted by the government of Soviet Ukraine in 1925 to replace the term "town" (Ukrainian: містечко). Here is the text of original decree: [1]. The 1981 decree was just one of many which regulated the procedure of how exactly settlements might change their status (e.g. from village to urban-type settlement, or from urban-type settlement to city) — this decree did not introduce the term, but just updated the previous 1965 regulation. Kammerer55 (talk) 06:33, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! I'll add this into the article. HappyWith (talk) 20:02, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The law was supposed to come into effect no later than yesterday, but many government websites still use the term "urban-type settlement." Is it too early to change the phrase urban-type settlement to selyshche/settlement in articles? Shwabb1 (talk) 03:25, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We need to know what becomes of them, they might be upgraded to cities. Ymblanter (talk) 17:36, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All urban-type settlements will turn into selyshches, see here. The proposal of the local council and the approval of the Verkhovna Rada are needed for a selo or a selyshche to become a misto (and vice versa), for example in the case of Hostomel. Shwabb1 (talk) 03:48, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are a bunch of articles that have "(urban-type settlement)" in their titles that now need to be moved. I moved one article to Andriivka (rural-type settlement), Kramatorsk Raion, Donetsk Oblast, but then realized something - should we even be including the "rural-type" part anymore? There are no urban-type settlements to contrast with anymore, and the new status appears to just be "selyshche" (settlement). Pinging @Shwabb1 who seems to understand the laws well. I'm wondering if maybe we should make a larger discussion at WP:UAPLACE or something. HappyWith (talk) 19:49, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rural settlement points to a rural settlement (not to rural-type settlement), and I do not see why it should be anything else. Ymblanter (talk) 20:50, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's better to refer to selyshches as rural settlements, since "settlement" on its own may refer to any populated place (населений пункт). I also want to note that:

This version of the Constitution of Ukraine in English calls selyshches "settlements" and populated places "inhabited localities"; and

The Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine refers to populated places as both "settlements" and "localities". Shwabb1 (talk) 00:50, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are already articles with "(rural-type settlement)" in the name (ex: Topoli (rural-type settlement)). Should we move those as well? HappyWith (talk) 13:44, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since there is no reason to mention that it's a "type" of a settlement (urban-type settlements don't exist anymore), I support using the phrase rural settlement for selyshches. Shwabb1 (talk) 14:25, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After doing a brief search, it seems a little unclear. This article seems to be saying that there is misinformation about the exact status change. HappyWith (talk) 19:02, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also worth pointing out that the article used to source the 24 January date does not actually specify the 24th - it specifies a number of months after the passage of the law. There's a chance that the actual date of effect is slightly different depending on how they count the months with different numbers of days. HappyWith (talk) 19:08, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This source is recent and says the cut-off date is 26 January, so I am starting to update the articles. Note that just replacing "urban-type settlement" with "settlement" is a poor way of doing this, since it removes reliable sourced info. For a good way, see e.g. Dmytrivka, Chernihiv Oblast (lede and the history section, also infoboxes need to be updated). I am not sure about hromadas, but probably all of them will be downgraded to rural hromadas. Ymblanter (talk) 16:20, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also the short description.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:44, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The settlement hromadas will not become rural hromadas. The center of a rural hromada is a selo (village), but every urban-type settlement is supposed to become a selyshche (rural settlement), which is different from selo. Shwabb1 (talk) 16:38, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Currently, there are rural hromadas which have a selyshche as a center. Ymblanter (talk) 16:43, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Settlement hromada (селищна громада) derives from selyshche (селище), and can be alternatively translated as selyshche hromada. I would be surprised if the government decided to rename like a third of hromadas also. Do you have any specific examples of rural hromadas that have a selyshche as the center? Shwabb1 (talk) 16:54, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I spent some time searching now and I can not find any. Probably you are right. Ymblanter (talk) 17:13, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Found one, Kamianyi Mist rural hromada in Pervomaisk Raion, Mykolaiv Oblast. I am sure there are more. Ymblanter (talk) 17:26, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Point 20 of a law concerning local government, translated:

"the name of the representative body of the local self-government of the formed territorial hromada as a legal entity, as a rule, consists of a part derived from the name of the settlement determined by its administrative center, in the form of an adjective, and the corresponding name of the representative body of local self-government (village, settlement, or city council)"

The council of Kamianyi Mist was a village council - even before the 2020 administrative reform - hence its hromada is a rural hromada. I think this applies to all pre-2024 selyshches. But, the councils of former urban-type settlements are still called settlement councils, e.g., Manhush settlement council or Pulyny settlement council, as seen on the websites. As long as settlement councils exist, settlement hromadas also exist. Shwabb1 (talk) 04:37, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks, let us indeed keep the settlement hromadas for the time being. Ymblanter (talk) 08:30, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've been very slowly adding the dates that each place was an urban-type settlement over, but I've run into a bit of a concern - there are over nine hundred UTSs in this article already. If I keep adding new references for each one, will that end up breaking the article due to length problems? HappyWith (talk) 15:27, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]