- File:Cmurphy-discopigs.jpg (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (restore|cache|IfD)
This image was removed without discussion from the Cillian Murphy article as an invalidly used non-free image, and was later deleted by an admin, again without any additional input from others, as a replaceqable fair use image, despite the fact that the article had only within the past two weeks achieved FA status with the image in it. John Carter (talk) 21:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. Butseriouslyfolks (talk · contribs) deleted the image as "replaceable fair use image", but I don't think it was tagged as such, nor was the uploader (or others) given an adequate opportunity to discuss it either on the IDP itself, or at an WP:IfD. Uploaded after 2006-07-13, WP:CSD#i7 requires notification of the uploader to then delete within 48 hours; as far as I can ascertain, Melty girl (talk · contribs) was not notified of such. Full disclosure: I ultimately support the deletion decision (and reasoning behind it), but I feel I disagree with the fashion in which it was implemented. See Image talk:Cmurphy-discopigs.jpg#Fair use rationale was already ratified by multiple reviews.
The appears to be something technically wrong with the instigation of this DRV, as the header refers to an AfD redlink, and the "talk" link doesn't work. — pd_THOR | =/\= | 21:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The DRV nomination template calls {{la}}. This needs to be switched by hand to {{li}} or another equivalent template when a non-article is nominated. The regulars have decided it is easier to do it by hand than to write very complicated template code to figure out which sub-template to actually use. I've updated. GRBerry (talk) 21:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. The film is only tangentially mentioned in the article so this clearly is not an image that details a particularly important element of the article. As such its inconceivable that this can be justifiably used on a non-free licence in this way. Fair use is for illustrating the subject - that would be the film not the actor. Spartaz Humbug! 21:37, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn- The image clearly satisfied WP:FU as a screenshot of low resolution that was being used to provide critical commentary regarding a key performance of C. Murphy. It had a clearly written fair use rationale, which together with other FU images, was thoroughly reviewed during the WP:FA process and had been rightfully found to be appropriate. The deletion was without any discussion or explanation. The user who had tagged the image with {{fairusereview}} did not open any discussion at WP:FUR, and when asked to provide an precise statement as to how the image violates WP:FU, his explanation was "i find the rationale silly". The actions and behaviors aforementioned violate WP:CIVIL, WP:CONSENSUS and WP:FU and I recommend the remedying of this situation by overturning this deletion and restoring the image. --Kudret abiTalk 21:37, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse my own deletion per WP:NFC. It has been our consistent policy for at least the past several months that images of living actors, musicians and other performers cannot be used to illustrate their biographical articles. In that context, they are replaceable. The issue whether these images satisfied NFC was not discussed at FAR. (FAR will often review whether there are too many non-free images, assuming that they are valid under NFC.) -- But|seriously|folks 22:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn as an out-of-process deletion. Speedy deletions in general are only for obvious, uncontroversial cases. In cases like this there was clearly a consensus as of very recently that the image was appropriate under our non-free content policy. Deference should clearly be given to decisions already made on featured articles. Inasmuch as the entire issue is a disagreement as to the application of a relatively non-urgent policy like NFCC and there is no argument at all that the use is illegal, we should not disrupt the project by taking images out of featured articles. A single administrator (even a respected, thoughtful administrator like Butseriouslyfolks) should not delete images it at whim. Arguments that the image is deletable should be discounted - this is not the place to make such arguments. The deletion did not follow procedure and the procedure cannot be rehabilitated here. If any still feel the image should be deleted the thing to do is to list it at WP:IFD. Wikidemo (talk) 21:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. Images of living celebrities taken from their performances are fair use violations. The image can be used to illustrate an article about the program or the character, but not about the actor, unless there is extensive discussion in the actor's article about their appearance as the character. Corvus cornix (talk) 22:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- That's simply an incorrect statement of policy. Nowhere does the non-free use policy or guideline page say that; quite the opposite. An argument to change the policy should apply, if anywhere, on the policy or guideline page, but should not in an image deletion review. Wikidemo (talk) 23:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You mean the part of the non-free use page which specifically says Film and television screen shots: For critical commentary and discussion of the cinema and television. ? Corvus cornix (talk) 19:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The section you quoted contradicts your first statement, yes. But you also misconstrue what the examples says as well as the role of the examples in the guideline. The example does not stand for the proposition that a screen shot cannot be used in an article about an actor. Commentary on an actor performing a role is discussion of the cinema and television. Moreover the individual examples listed are incomplete, not exhaustive. It says screenshots may be used for certain purposes. It does not say they cannot be used for other purposes too.Wikidemo (talk) 15:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- It is not a contradiction, it's an exception. Commentary on an actor performing a role is not the sole criterion. It must be more than just "he played this character". I don't see anything in the article as it now stands which is "critical commentary and discussion", just that he was in it. Corvus cornixtalk 17:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn As an out of process deletion. The reason for deletion given in the deletion log is "replaceable fair use image", implying that the image was used to identify Cillian Murphy. The image was not used to identify this person, the free Image:Cillianmurphy.jpg does that. This image was deleted after three film screenshots were taken out of Cillian Murphy on the grounds that no screenshots can be used in any actors' article [2] [3] [4], even if there is extensive discussion about the film in the actor's article. This reasoning has been greeted with surprise and disagreed with on Talk:Cillian Murphy and WT:NONFREE, showing that the policy has not yet reached consensus and needs further discussion and clarification. Bláthnaid 23:37, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse per Corvus comix and Spartaz. Failed to comply with NFCC, and indeed the other two non-free images currently do not meet those criteria either. Undeleting the image so we can delete again after some arbitrary period of time has passed seems, to be charitable, misguided. Can anyone in favour of overturning this deletion explain in detail how the use of these images complies with NFCC 8 and 10? Absent such an explanation, there is no choice but to endorse the deletion. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:57, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Any problems with NFCC #10 are fixable. As for #8, the argument is that a limited amount of screenshots do significantly increase readers' understanding of an actor's biography. This is, however, a discussion best suited to WT:NFCC. This deletion should be overturned because it was deleted while people were discussing its suitability for the article. Now, non-administrators cannot fully take part in the discussion. (For example here, where an editor thinks that there were originally just two nonfree images in the article.) Also, the image was deleted so quickly User:Melty girl and other interested parties were not given the time to make their case for this image's retention. Maybe they could have expanded the relevant part of the article, or found a better image. Bláthnaid 00:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: It has just come to my attention that this image is part of a larger problem concerning the use of fair use images in the Cillian Murphy article, which somehow managed to get through Featured Article Review without a single person noticing that three of the image were in violation of Wikipedia's Fair Use image policy. There is now a disruptive edit war going on as to whether or not the existing images which have not yet been deleted should stay in the article. User:Wikidemo and User:Melty girl argue that the images are allowed because the article contains "critical commentary' about them, whereas I see absolutely no critical commentary about the images, and therefore feel that none of the fair use images should be allowed. Corvus cornixtalk 23:26, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You are the one edit warring, removing two different photos from the one being discussed here, even though review and discussion is still underway and no clear consensus exists. My one revert of you did argue that critical commentary exists in the article regarding those two other images (I think The New York Times, The New Yorker, The San Francisco Chronicle etc. certainly qualify), but it also requested that you wait until review has taken place before removing images from the article, since there is ample discussion but no consensus yet, and reviews of the images have not taken place. Additionally, you sought to take the whole article to FAR over these three images, but were rebuffed. You are the one who has been behaving in a disruptive manner. Please let the process work itself out before taking action over something clearly controversial. --Melty girl (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Removing the images one time, before I knew there was a general discussion about how any fair use image can be used for any specious purpose, is hardly edit warring. Corvus cornixtalk 21:08, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I read an interesting passage at the WP article on Fair use:
- The four factors of analysis for fair use set forth above derive from the classic opinion of Joseph Story in Folsom v. Marsh, 9 F.Cas. 342 (1841), in which the defendant had copied 353 pages from the plaintiff's 12-volume biography of George Washington in order to produce a separate two-volume work of his own. The court rejected the defendant's fair use defense with the following explanation:
- [A] reviewer may fairly cite largely from the original work, if his design be really and truly to use the passages for the purposes of fair and reasonable criticism. On the other hand, it is as clear, that if he thus cites the most important parts of the work, with a view, not to criticize, but to supersede the use of the original work, and substitute the review for it, such a use will be deemed in law a piracy....
- In short, we must often... look to the nature and objects of the selections made, the quantity and value of the materials used, and the degree in which the use may prejudice the sale, or diminish the profits, or supersede the objects, of the original work.
- I see the bolded phrase to be most critical in our assessment. These images while loosely defined as criticism, certainly do not supersede the use of the original work, nor do they: prejudice the sale, diminish the profits, or supersede the objects of the original work. To the contrary these uses probably enhance the sales and profits for the original works -- free advertising! --Kevin Murray (talk) 03:56, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn: Firstly, this deletion was improperly done no matter whether you agree with, or disagree with, the image use or not. Butseriouslyfolks (talk · contribs) knew full well that a serious discussion was taking place (he was part of it) AND that he was opposed to the view that the fair-use images are still allowed. Oh, and his deletion claimed that the image was a "replaceable fair use image", but with what? Another fair-use image because a PD of the actor would not show him portraying a role in a movie.
- Comment The implications of this action being upheld are very serious indeed and a real discussion must take place about fair-use images in actor article, and possibly about fair-use in general. It seems that Corvus cornix (talk · contribs) is also against fair-use in general, as he states this is a larger problem, and therefore supports this specific deletion as well as the deletion of all the other fair-use images that are in the Cillian Murphy article which he is now promoting by putting the Cillian Murphy article up for fair-use review at Wikipedia:Fair_use_review#Cillian_Murphy even while this discussion is taking place - that is way to bold for me. I think that before deleting any more fair-use images we need to discuss fair-use policy in essence at WP:RFC/POLICIES because there are apparently quite a few editors who disagree with the current policy and take action, or support action taken, based on the opposing views rather than on the policy. ww2censor (talk) 23:55, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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