Talk:ETA (separatist group)

Does anyone have information about why ETA use an asclepius staff as their logo? It'd be appreciated if anyone could add this info to the article. 144.32.196.3 12:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

It´s not the asclepius nor the caduceus. ETA uses an axe, not a staff or a winged rod. The axe signifies the toughness and the snake sigil in words of [Felix Likiniano]http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Likiniano the designer of the simbol.

Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA)--This is used to represent all categories of ritual abuse which would be inspired by the desire to rob, kill, or destroy something worthwhile in a person, especially their freedom of thought. Many groups carrying out SRA do not mention Satan by that name. They may make Pacts to Baphomet, and call upon Rex Mundi, or Belair, or Lucifer, or the Father of Light, God, or Kali or even "Jesus" or "Jesus Christ" (there are demons which call themselves "Jesus", who are not to be confused with Yeshua or Yehoshua ben Joseph who is known as Jesus Christ of Nazareth.) SRA is not a value judgement by the authors against some group, the victims themselves on some level know that he or she is being abused. That sound as the use of ETA symbol described — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.47.192.162 (talk • contribs)

Wikipedia:No original research explains that you should not abuse Wikipedia to promote your own ideas. If you can not find reputable references for your theories, Wikipedia is not the right place for them. --Error 00:10, 29 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Are they really? What is the status of the two web links cited for this statement? They don't seem at first sight to be reliable sources. Itsmejudith 08:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC).Reply

They are, as far as I know, at least theoretically. In practice, though, the generalized opinion in Spain is that they resemble more a fascist group.Juanmejgom 03:11, 13 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

I don't see much sense in describing ETA as Marxist-Leninist. They may in the past have been influenced by such ideology but the basis of whatever ideology they have left is clearly nationalism. I would propose that this section be amended to to say that they were originally inspired by Marxist ideas - as with many groups emerging in the late 60's - but that this is no longer the most inportant part of their ideology. Southofwatford 18:01, 13 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

The definition of ETA as a terrorist group is how it's described by most institutions and political parties, including most of the nationalist ones in the Basque Country (such as PNV). I therefore think that it is much more correct to describe ETA as a "terrorist organisation defined by itself as a nationalist group" rather than a "nationalist group defined by 'others' as a terrorist one". Escorial82 08:22, 07 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

I think like you. Adalme 08:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Does not matter what individuals think WP:POV lets deal with history of ETA first. BigDunc 08:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Of course it is not the key thing in this article, although the description of what is ETA is important, like in other articles it is done of other groups, institutions, etc.

Both the nationalist paramilitary and terrorist terms need to be mentioned, nevertheless it is more fundamental how it is defined by national and international institutions than described by minoritarian political parties (with their correspondent political views, not the neutralism of international institutions). Escorial82 10:08, 07 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Nationalist is a factual description - whether they are nationalist terrorists or nationalist freedom fighters, I don't think it is really disputed that they are nationalists; that is simply a description of their views. Terrorist and Freedom fighter, on the other hand, are highly-charged descriptions implying particular moral judgements, so Wikipedia's Manual of Style (see WP:TERRORIST) states that we should never use these terms in the "narrative voice", we should only use them as opinions attributed to particular people or groups.

On the other hand, I don't think that this means that mention of the opinion needs to be relegated to half a dozen paragraphs down the page. WP:NPOV says, "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias" (my emphasis). If one obscure group described the ETA as terrorist, this would be something that should be left to later in the article. As it is a very widely-held view, it is proportionate to mention it early in the article. This doesn't mean that we should report it as fact; but it does mean that the view should be given prominence. TSP 09:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

I think the way you've written it is correct, so I would leave it as it is. Escorial82 10:20, 07 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

The version I reverted to establishes they are paramilitary. It then explains what they do, and what they hope to accomplish. It then describes that various governments class them as terrorist because of this. The version it is on now I feel is wrong because it says they are terrorist before it's even explained exactly what they have done to be classed as terrorist. It makes absolutely no sense to do it that way.BigDunc 09:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Paramilitary is defined as a subjective term, that is why it should not be used in the definition of what they are. TSP, your description is objective Escorial82 11:10, 07 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Ill agree to that point but the rest of my argument is valid is it not . BigDunc 10:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Have a read of Words to avoid. BigDunc 10:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Reverted to Dunc's version. We need to establish why they are classed as terrorist before we say they are, Dunc's version makes far more sense. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 10:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

The reason they are classed as terrorist is their killings, not their supposed targets. That's why such murders data and terrorist classification is the first thing to mention, followed by what they explain as reasons (they are not a political party that performs actions) escorial82 08:55, 10 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

It's not exact Eta is a revolutionary organization. It is a unacceptable moral enjudgement.

I'm refering to it as terrorist including who is who is calling it so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adalme (talk • contribs) 13:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I've removed "revolutionary" - that description only appeared during the modifications made by other editors responding to your repeated re-adding of "terrorist" in this context.

I think the problem that most editors are having is that starting the article with something like "ETA is a terrorist organisation, in the opinion of these groups" gives a biased view - it seems to assume that that opinion is correct; as distinct from the version you changed it from, which was on the lines of "ETA is a nationalist organisation, which is described by these groups as terrorist". By using an opinion as the primary description, even if you then go on to say whose opinion it is, you are still expressing a very strong Point Of View that that description is a correct one.

The phrasing you actually used was "in the discretion of" - I'm not totally sure what you mean by this. I'm guessing English may not be your first language? That's fine, and you're welcome to contribute to Wikipedia; but you will have to expect that your contributions will be edited, for style if nothing else.

Could you let us know what other problems you have with the current form of the article? A lot of the information you are putting into the lead section is already elsewhere in the article. TSP 16:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

I have against restored basic article structure to the lead. The "consensual version" referred to in these edits by Adalme does not exist, and never has done. It is complete folly to have the group forming after you've said they have committed murders and are classed as a terrorist group. First you have a brief history of the group and their aims, then you deal with their actions, then you deal with the consequences of those actions. It's basic common sense. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 13:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Basic article structure restored. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 14:33, 10 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

What's more important in a group: It's ideals or its actions? Of course both need to be explained, but there are many groups with similar objectives but that do not make murders, that's ETA's main difference, the reasons for ETA's current importance. Look at some other articles and other Wikipedia servers. The definition of Al-Qaeda as a terrorist group is mentioned in the second paragraph, after a small first one, explaining that there are a merger of many organisations. Look at ETA in, for example, the Spanish or French Wikipedia or French. ETA's terrorist classification is mentioned in the first sentence. Globally Al-Qaeda or ETA in Spain and France are much more polemic than in other countries. Yet, such question as whether to mention their terrorism in the beginning or later is not constantly changed or even now a topic in the discussion, and the articles are not classified as non-neutral. escorial82) 08:35, 11 September 2007 (GMT)

Both, but you can't explain their actions until you have explained why they are doing it. The French Wiki is a poor example, the lead is only one sentence to begin with. Ignoring that the lead would need to be bigger to begin with, if this lead was once sentence I would agree it should be in that sentence. But it isn't, so it's a better place. I could see some possible benefit in moving the terrorist classification and adding it to the first paragraph as a compromise, but the details of the deaths can't come before the group is formed. Look at Adolf Hitler, World War II and the Holocaust are mentioned after his rise to power, as you would expect. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 09:23, 11 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

I agree. Of course the details, and specific actions, don't need to be mentioned in the beginning, but adding then that they are classified as a terrorist organisation, for later mentioning the number of deaths and the details of its classification as such is a good compromise. I suggest something of this structure: "ETA is an armed Basque nationalist organisation. It is recognised internationally as terrorist due to the type of its attacks." Then the details of the ideology and objectives, and finally the number of deaths & prisoners and the institutions that classify ETA as terrorist. Is that better? escorial82 09:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

The version you just changed to was not acceptable. There cannot be duplication, only moving and possibly rewording what is there. However I am still waiting to see what other editors think. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

As I said above deal with the history and ideology of ETA in the lead and get on with the rest as ONiH refers to the Hitler article. BigDunc 15:19, 11 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

I support the status the article has now, after BD edit the 11/09 @ 17:00, it's very acceptable. It is a good balance describing ETA as armed group, followed, after a small paragraph, that there are classified as terrorist. Then those two topics are detailed. Also, some subjective modifications have been cancelled. escorial82 07:47, 12 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

NO I am in disagreement with you. You are not showing neutral situation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by La voz de su amo (talk • contribs) 17:57, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

La voz de su amo is constantly changing the lead section we had all agreed upon. Apart from changing the infobox into a war one, he changes the location of the paragraph explaining the consideration of ETA as terrorist by many authorities, for example here.La voz, I please ask you to stop making those changes, as the current structure was agreed by many. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Escorial82 (talk • contribs) 07:23, 2 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

You are not correct, These people and myself are not in agreement with you. You are the lone voice, you are not the masters voice. La voz de su amo 19:02, 2 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

On these two (or three) matters, I agree with Escorial. Regarding the paragraph position, whether you believe it is accurate or not, the description of the ETA as terrorist by the UN, USA, EU and others is sufficiently important to be given greater prominence than the 15th paragraph; correct or not, it is the most significant external perspective on the organisation.

Regarding the infobox, Template:Infobox War Faction is a poor fit for this organisation. It is not one of the participants in a war called 'Basque nationalism' - Basque Nationalism is a set of beliefs, not a war. Template:Infobox militant organization (which no longer has the word 'terrorist' in its title) simply has a better set of fields for depicting this group - for example, a box allowing you to specify the group's beliefs, rather than having to identify them in terms of which war they are involved in.

To address another issue: what is the justification for putting the group's dates of activity as "1959–1999, 2007 - present"? The article mentions several acts, both attributed and admitted, performed by the ETA between 1999 and 2007. What is the justification for saying the group was inactive between these dates? TSP 19:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

I will agree to your change of infobox, but the terrorist section is too much. Some call ETA terrorist, some call the freedom fighters, there should be balance not just onesided. By all means states that some organisations say they are terrorists but not all so it should not be at the start. It is not the main piece of information about them. La voz de su amo 19:03, 5 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

There is a paragraph describing the current law regulating political parties, with the condition required of rejecting terrorist violence; this is why HB was declared illegal. A sentence is frequently changed, by adding a parenthesis in it: ...this is a law barring political parties which may support violence (other than the state's), and don't condemn.... Adding that means assuming that there is current state violence, and that the law defends it / does not demand its rejection. This is clearly subjective, and the reference I added to the full text of the law proves it. I suggest therefore to keep that sentence without the area I marked bold. escorial82 14:04, 12 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

I agree. BigDunc 14:06, 12 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

I disagree. The Spanish state has often acted violently in its suppression of movements that sought Basque independence. I'm not sure how "current" an example of state violence you're looking for. Allegations of torture in police custody are common, and police "broke up" (using batons) a rally for ETA prisoners' rights in Donostia just last Sunday. Spanish law defends these beatings, and does not demand their rejection from any political party. Far from it. The state's position on violence is "clearly subjective". If members of ETA beat dozens of people with sticks, I would have no problem describing such an action as violent. Would you? Lapsed Pacifist 12:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Violent state reactions to those movements, for their ideology, occurred more than 30 years ago, during Franco's dictatorship; not any more. Indeed street violence still occurs, but it is completely different. Please see all the information of the example you give me of last Sunday. What happened there was the anti-disturb unit of the police dismantling a violent concentration that had no authorisation to be done (any manifestation, done by anyone for any reason, without a previous convocation and without announcing to the authorities is illegal and is dismantled by the police; if violence surges the anti-disturbs need to work, but for sorting the violence that exists there, not because of the politics). Many others, asking for the same things, are done without any physical violence. In standard daily situations none of this violence exists. Escorial82 16:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

There's plenty more violence from the state than what's seen on the streets. The reason the marches are banned is because their politics is anathema to the state. If the police let them march, what trouble would there be? Are there counter-protests? Lapsed Pacifist 15:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

There are many marches of independentist societies, in many regions of Spain, this includes some that haven't been demanded but are not violent, and not dismantled (e.g. a few days ago in Gerona). The political situation in Spain, especially now-a-days, puts a lot of pressure to the national authorities to be very careful with those things. And many researches have been done by justice institutions (including non-Spanish ones) of "unseen" violence in Police Stations, prisons, etc. Escorial82 08:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Escorial82, can you give me some more information on this edit please? The information needs to be in the article, but I'm unhappy about the wording as "that seem to have been directed" is a POV statement and requires attribution. The reference provided is in Spanish, so it's difficult for me to reword what's there. Thanks. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 14:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

I dont speak Spanish either but it seems to be the story of a girl caught up in an attack. I dont feel that she was the target of the attack so maybe a jump here from casualtys of an attack to a policy of attackin the general public. But Spanish speakers please correct me if I am wrong. BigDunc 14:53, 12 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

The attack was aimed at general people, no one in particular in them; it was made in a hypermarket, causing 21 deaths. I attach here the link to a page in English resuming it; I'll put it later in the main article as another reference, as it mentions more directly the event itself and not a particular person in it. MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base. Escorial82 11:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

I added the reference to this terrorist attack and the BBC article to the one in Plaza Callao. Those two are only examples, as others have occurred, I personally think it is clear enough in the article. --Escorial82 16:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

I've reworded it as it's a POV statement not supported by the references. This says "demonstrated a disregard for the safety of innocent civilians" which isn't the same as targeting them, and this says it was a car bomb (with a warning issued) that exploded outside a shop, which is more inkeeping with the economic targets (as is the previous reference). One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 09:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Some of the attacks have not killed civilian people by "accident" but were clearly their target. For example, in the one in Hypercor or their last one in the airport of Madrid, there was no political / military / economic "objective" but only the people that were at the wrong place & wrong time. Similar ones in touristic locations. I would therefore suggest to change it back to how it was. Thank you for the other changes you've made. Escorial82 13:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

If there's a source that says what you just said, please cite it. The previous version was unattributed POV, and needed to be changed. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 13:15, 19 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

I regularly see how clear subjective modifications are made to basic points of the article, today by 88.15.159.145; he removed the mention to some of their mass killings and that there is street violence. It is not the first time that happens, and I shall eventually revert those changes later. For preventing this I suggest to make this article a semi-protected one. What do you think about it? Escorial82 11:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

I changed the Northern Basque Country to French Basque Country. I've never heard the expression NBC in Basque, Spanish, French or English, of all the names to describe the region that one is the most artificial one. Also removed the section Basque nationalism context. There is a several pages dedicated to Basque nationalism a link —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kirihito (talk • contribs) 01:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

I don't think this suits at the start of the page. It should be further down the page, maybe under "tactics", there could be a small section there. I also don't think the secondary tactical causes is right there too. That should just be a short introduction about ETA. I will edit this soon, because as it is the topic start just looks messy. Codu ^(t)⁄_(c) •  19:04, 14 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Kent vs Kenneth. Kent is confirmed by ABC, which seems more than reliable to me. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 17:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

I read in the introduction of the article:

"The organization has adopted from time to time other secondary tactical causes such as fighting against: Alleged heroin traffickers and 'black foot' punk migrants". It is not real that ETA attacks migrants (black foot? that is an unknown expression in the Basque Country), I think that the author wanted to insinuate that ETA has got a racist ideology, when many ETA members are son of migrants come to the Basque Country. And what means "a fix for a tip"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.35.245.46 (talk) 15:21, 18 October 2007 (UTC)Reply