Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indonesia/Archive 3

The articles Gelora Bung Tomo, Bukittinggi Airport and Madiun Stadium have been nominated for deletion. While my Indonesian is poor, I have reason to beleive that the stadiums are genuine, and that airport seems likely. Cheers. Mostlyharmless (talk) 22:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Also Arema Malang International Airport was deleted. Does anyone know if this was a hoax? Cheers. Mostlyharmless (talk) 22:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Selamat tahun Baru! I have been continuing to create articles to get rid of some of the more prominent redlinks on important pages, and am working my way through the Indonesian elections. I was surprised to see the Indonesian legislative election, 1999 was redlinked, and when I clicked on it, I found out that it had been deleted on 13 May 2005 my a (now ex-) admin for the reason "content was: 'poopy stinky poopy'". What's going on? Any thoughts? Any chance of recreating it, or if do (sigh) will it get zapped again? Davidelit (talk) 11:34, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Recreate it, it's a valid page. Do you have enough info to get it past the stub stage? haydn_likes_carpet (talk) 11:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I have more than enough info to get it past the stub stage, but the problem is finding the time. There were 48 parties participating, and I hate making tables! OK, I'm on the case. Davidelit (talk) 13:24, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

What happened to this category? Was there a reason for its deletion or never-existedness? Should I (re)create it? Or am I missing something? Davidelit (talk) 20:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

No idea. Did you have it watchlisted? If it's a commons page, perhaps ask on the talk page. --Merbabu (talk) 11:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I was just recreating Commons:Category:Indonesia maps and adding maps to it when I realized to my horror that Commons:Category:Maps of Indonesia already exists, so I undid my damage and changed the link on the project/carography page. I will go and eat humble pie and nominate my own page for deletion. Rats! Davidelit (talk) 13:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess we needed this article, but what a mess. Current version needing work. --Merbabu (talk) 08:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Bah humbug its fixed already :) - we do need a good one on ibu tien as well! SatuSuro 09:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

And another. Same author - colourful user talk page. groan. --Merbabu (talk) 09:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I've suggested this article's name be changed. Please discuss in one central page here. Thanks --Merbabu (talk) 10:55, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Folks involved with WP:Indonesia might be interested in this proposal. Cheers! – Scartol • Tok 01:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I would like to get the current edit issues off one of the article talk pages - and on to this project page - so that the record is set straight on an issue that has significant issue in this project.

• Comment

1. Many publications about Indonesia have lists of things
2. There are some very unwieldy lists that are currently in the Indonesian Project - and are expandable
3. Considerable lists such as the TV station list has sections that are neither alphabetical or in context as to why the order is made
4. Lists in this project - should they have general guidelines? created by the project - or do we accept precedents from other projects
5. Lists in this project - considering TV, islands and so on - should they have links to items with no articles?

• Please take some time to make civil and considered responses to this issue as it is a project wide issue - and not just in one list. Thanks SatuSuro 11:47, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I have a few things to add.

1. 'Bare' lists, with no supporting info are of very little use. The situation is worse if most of the items are redlinks. The List of TV Stations in Indonesia is a case in point. No context, full of redlinks (would anybody read, yet alone write, an article about every single regional TV station?) and frankly not exactly a notable subject.
2. If there are categories, do we need all these lists at all? Surely one or the other. If both exist, there is a danger of mismatches. See for example List of National Heroes of Indonesia and Category:National Heroes of Indonesia, which I haven't had the time to reconcile yet...
3. Finally a minor point. All these lists look different. Some have tables, some are alphabetical, some are random. If lists do continue, and I am no longer convinced they are worth it, should there be some kind of standard.
4. I haven't looked at all the lists because I'm not that sad and lonely. I'm waiting for somebody to create a "List of Indonesian Lists" :-) Davidelit (talk) 14:36, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I am neither sad or lonely - but I am a category worker of whom most projects have very few editors either interested or willing to actually look after either - 'cross project standards' (yes david thats why this discussion is here in the first place) need to be created and maintained - specially where we have considerable numbers of low level english indonesian editors moving material from the indonesia wikipedia (where standards appear to be very different) into english wikipedia creating quality control nightmare as they flounder with their english and the level of reference and citation standards required here. SatuSuro 02:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

That the Indonesian Project create a set of guidelines for lists in the project -

• (1) evaluated by criteria of adequate citations or references, listlength, use to project, use to direct to other exisiting wikipedia articles
• (2) a sub page in the project is utlised for an discussion and evaluation of all lists in the project

SatuSuro 06:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

This proposal is reasonable. I think that the criteria of adequate citations should be more open than just requiring a Wikipedia article to be declared notable. Just because the general consensus may be that no one wants to write article about all of the notable schools/tv stations in Indonesia, it does not mean no one should or will. ML Saturn (talk) 06:54, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

This discussion also needs to nut out as to whether there are situations where notability in the wider wikipedia project is or can be the same in the Indonesia project or in effect the education sub project of the indonesian project - clear understandings of what

• (a) might be notable in the general Indonesian project (viz size of population, diversity of population etc) and in effect the sub project of Indonesian education -

• I would argue that - for example in the Universities - there may well be situation where notability exists in three diff spheres - ITB (Bandung) and UGM (Yogyakarta) are known about outside of Indonesia, while certain schools and universities in Jakarta are known about throughout Indonesia, while Undana in Kupang West Timor might have only eastern Indonesia notability - hence there are degrees of notability that need to be addressed by the project - in the proposed sub page - so that those willing to have a reasonable discussion have a single place for it.

• (b) following on from the issue of suggesting levels of notability - the issue for lists - is not whether anyone might want to write an article about a particular entity - but whether the Indonesian Project can carry messy lists or not - lists will have to be resolved here or in the sub page - the school and television lists reflect badly on the project - there needs to be standardisation. For instance some broader subject projects in wikipedia insist that lists only carry mention of items that can be linked to - never grey or red links - and that articles extant are the only ones to be mentioned in the lists.

• (c) I would strongly suggest all lists in in the Indonesia project carry 'to do' on their talk pages of red and grey links - and only have blue links on the actual list page - with no exceptions. To suggest otherwise would go against general wikipedia practice - the talk pages and to do lists are established practice.

SatuSuro 07:09, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. A to do list containing red items would be appropriate. Despite the varying degrees of notability, items known only regionally within Indonesia are notable enough to be a part of Wikipedia. Although this may not be a common practice, I think that it should be explicitly stated on the article that missing items can be found on the "to do list." This is because the individuals qualified to write articles about the missing items may not be familiar with Wikipedia practice. -- ML Saturn (talk) 11:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

IN that case I do hope the two other project editors who had problems with the grey/red being included in the school list might come in at some point and agree - so that we can have an established procedure within this project - and any others wo might be watching - it would be good to move on to an accepted practice - and the to do list on the talk page will get around what I thought looked like the issue. Please correct me if i read it wrong! SatuSuro 11:32, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm ready to proceed with List of schools in Indonesia when you are as long as Merbabu and Caniago who have been editing the article recently do not object. ML Saturn (talk) 16:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Only subjects that have articles should be on a list. Further, a subject should only have an article if it is both (a) notable and (b) this notability is supported by reliable secondary sources. Thus no schools should have articles because “it’s my school and it’s a cool school” and there should be no redlinks in the lists – if red links in a to-do or talk page help editors, that is fine – just not on the main page.--Merbabu (talk) 21:09, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I consider the issue of sorting by province/island and what is N versus not N - and trying to evaluate of what might be notable from the full range of schools in Indonesia has led me to following conclusion:-

Indonesian School list I have thought about it carefully - it is crazy - proyek gila - in Indonesian - I will try to ask all involved for it to be abandoned.

Any articles to be written do not need to be linked to a list - written articles are far more important than lists and can be kept in a category.

Please see- Wikipedia:Categories vs lists - thanks SatuSuro 14:55, 1 March 2008 (UTC) And if not sure after that - try Wikipedia:WikiProject Laundromat - cheers SatuSuro 09:45, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_February_23#People_by_city_in_Indonesia_categories

This discussion is being 'keep' voted with little or no response to concerns from the Indonesia project members

• the Indonesia project appears to be lumped with a collection of categories that the project does not want - simply because of the precedent that the USA and british projects have far too large lumps that they either cannot or dont want to do anything about - in other words the editors passing comment are assuming that the Indonesia project might have to put up with an unweildy collection simply because they have never grappled with the issue in their particular projects - even thought they can see project management issues that no one has confronted - so perhaps the Indonesia project is being told - 'we havent fixed our problems - so you cannot fix yours' - is one way to read the responses

SatuSuro 02:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_February_26#Category:Indonesian_Catholics

This discussion like the above is likely to be 'lost' unless project members actually go have a look and comment SatuSuro 00:14, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Too many articles are being created from Wikipedia Indonesia - without the sign of single reference to the source of information - please help the project by alerting editors to the standards by which this project wishes to keep for new or developing articles. SatuSuro 10:58, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Any such unreferenced content that is added I delete on sight. Brutal yes, but it is important to maintain standards. Quality is far more important than quantity. PS, WP ID is not a reliable source. --Merbabu (talk) 11:28, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

 

I have nominated an Indonesia-related image as featured picture candidate. It is a painting of the arrest of the Javanese Prince Diponegoro by the Dutch General Hendrik de Kock in 1830. If you want support or oppose the nomination, please see Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Submission of the Prince to the General. Thank you for your help. – Ilse@ 23:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I've nominated these articles for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Palembangese & Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Lampungese. (Caniago (talk) 14:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC))

These deletion debates need further respondents to help clarify consensus. Please contribute if you are able to offer an opinion on the matter. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:33, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Senang Hati Foundation could use some help; it is currently at AfD. Cheers, Jack Merridew 10:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I've restored a shortcut; [1]. Someone needs to sort this out with the original hijacker. Cheers, Jack Merridew 10:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I have missed among the highest mountains the mentioning of the Volcano KERINJI, height approx. 3700 m nr. Mura Labu, south of Padang, which is the highest Mountain of Sumatra and therefor should be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.95.101.99 (talk) 21:57, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Mount Kerinci is located in Jambi, not West Sumatra. (Caniago (talk) 00:00, 15 March 2008 (UTC))

following message left in talk at List of Indonesian musicians -( I see no point in leaving such a large list of red links): -

In accordance with policies on other Indonesia project lists - a large number of the red link names need to be greyed or removed - there is no easy or simple way to ascertain whether the musicians actually exist - are notable - in english languange materials.

If you are not a native speaker of english -

• Adding to this list may be bahaya - sebab kalau name dengan merah-link - orang dari luar belum tahu untuk memeriksa kalau nama - hoax or not.

Please note this is English Wikipedia - we need proof that these musicians actually exist - any help would be appreciated - thanks SatuSuro 04:44, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

My view of "list of" is that lists should only contain items that have wikipedia articles. And, items should only have wikipedia articles if they are notable. --Merbabu (talk) 08:06, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I just started Dwifungsi, and User:Davidelit a more substantial article at Petition of 50. Please review. regards --Merbabu (talk) 10:08, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi I tried to create a map showing the Indonenesian time zones in different colours, but it really didn't turn out that well. Would definitely appreciate help here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Crix#Time_Zones_of_Indonesia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crix (talk • contribs) 17:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi all. Something has gone wrong with this infobox. The writing of the province name is too big and is left-justified. Could somebody find the time to fix it? See Jakarta and East Java for examples. Davidelit (talk) 05:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

• New Order (Indonesia)
• Transition to the New Order
• Sukarno

Have attracted the interest of an editor who has taken issue with the assertions within the articles - and so far the discussion has occurred on user talk pages - as we are a quite delayed and scattered group of editors at the best of times - I figure if anyone who has the left the door open/kept the noticeboard link - they might want to offer their opinion on the issue - kalau orang dengan sedikit bhs inggeris - orang dari luar mahu memeriksa yang hati hati dengan assertions dalam artikel artikel tentang zaman Sukarno ke Suharto - dan mau lebih banyak citations sebabnya kurang disana. SatuSuro 09:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The main authors of these articles have moved on. One of the articles' drawbacks has been the lack of citations, but most have a long list of sources - just not in-line cited. They certainly need work. While it's great attention has been given, and problems raised, it's a shame it could not have been done with a bit more,um, generosity of spirit (to put it gently).

OK, I will drag myself away from the colonial stuff for now. --Merbabu (talk) 09:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Davidelit has done a major expansion of this article. Very nice work indeed. I've bumped the rating from "stub", past "start", and made it "B" class in accordance with the Indonesia project assessment criteria. here Any objections? Any comments to Talk:Renville Agreement please. --Merbabu (talk) 02:22, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I've reorganized the cities, towns and villages in Indonesia by province given the way Indonesia is geographically this makes much more sense as is in coordination with my work on all the other countries. Also the stub categories have already been organized this way some time ago. IN the coming weeks I aim to add about 200 place articles to each new province categories as potentially each province often has several thousand settlements. Given that there are 70,000 odd places in Indonesia, the new organization will prepare for future gorwth and increase coverage on the various different parts of Indonesia by province. In the main category now the main cities in the country can be accessed at the List of Indonesian cities ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ ^$1,000,000? 13:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmmmm - some notification before the event would have been nice. Longstanding and knowledgeable project contributors have their own views on this. This was however, clearly a lot of effort on your behalf, and certainly there was a need for some sort of cleanup. Some comments on the work:

• Level of detail - I feel it's too much for the number of articles. We are left with many category tiers but only a handful of articles in each. Your comments above and the under categorised tag allude to this. While i agree that potentially these categories could indeed be filled with many new articles, I think that wikipedia categories should grow with the encyclopedia - not just cater for theoretical but yet to be realised potential sizes.
• What's the benefit of the "under populated" tag? It just looks ugly, and we can't really conjure up other towns to go in there. I doubt it's going to encourage others to create them - further, if you intend to create them (which would be great news), do you actually need the tag? Is it thus not just for your benefit?
• Categories should not have images in them IMO. I'm also not sure about the commons link, but that's not as bad as the image.

Any, just some thoughts. --Merbabu (talk) 03:27, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

There is some very sneaky bot that is doing commons links whether we like it or not in most projects.

Categories in this project are not harmed by maps

Under populated tag made at the same time as creating a category is a bit much - appearance is one thing a spare 100 extra editors to cope with editing anther

Intention of the editor who created it all is that stubs are created for identifiable places (good luck to him) - lets wait and see

The ultimate product will be that each province will end up with few extra thousand stubs with virtually nothing to support them apart from the fact that they exist

Lets see what happens. SatuSuro 11:04, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmm - OK, so I might go ahead and remove the tags. But leave the map - for now. --Merbabu (talk) 11:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Who is he? Is he notable? I was about to prod for deletion, but will ask here first. --Merbabu (talk) 04:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Not notable I'd say. No Indonesian I have asked has heard of him. And the sentence "leading English course; Oxford Course Indonesia" is not only POV, it's laughable. Absurd that this article exists when there are none for Cik Di Tiro, Kapitan Pattimura (who's on the money here!), Sisingamangaradja XII or Soepomo. So there. Davidelit (talk) 13:04, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. (although, you seem to be mistaken about the good captain - note the author). --Merbabu (talk) 13:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

My mistake. It was a redlink on List of National Heroes of Indonesia - now fixed. Davidelit (talk) 13:46, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, just a heads up -anyone familiar with the subject matter may want to improve these:

• I Ketut Soki
• Allison Sudradjat
• Sayan (Bali)

as they may get caught in the crossfire of a rather larger dispute (looonnngg story) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:52, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Nah go on - tell us - SatuSuro 02:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Is there no article in the Indonesian Wikipedia about the Indonesian rice table (rijstafel)? And is it called selamatan in Indonesian, as the German Wikipedia says? Badagnani (talk) 00:02, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Rijstafel was a Dutch invention - and selamatan is quite different from it (it is a ceremonial meal in the javanese cultural sphere) - they are in no way the same thing - in other words if the german wikipedia claim they are the same they are simply wrong - kesalahan besar! SatuSuro 04:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I removed reference to selamatan in en. regards --Merbabu (talk) 04:17, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I have left a message in english at german wikipedia selamatan article talk page about the fact that they are not synonymous SatuSuro 07:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

As nothing really happened after the suggestion above - I propose:

Starting with evidence from the following afd - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_shopping_malls_in_Malaysia

That English language Wikipedia Project Indonesia - start removing lists from the project - with List of shopping malls in Indonesia going to AFD first.

In case of bewilderment from list enthusiasts - a number of remedies might be suggested - by island, by province - but only with blue links no red .

Too many non english speaking IP numbers add red links and make the WP Indonesia EN lists look like a vast sea of red links - and there is never any followup with WP:RS, WP:N and other issues as well.

If there is support - the list of this project need to be reviewed one by one over time - as simply adding red or grey links is not what Wikipedia or this project is about!

In the process - perhaps the message might creep back to the WP Indonesia IN - that this project simply cannot for credibility - accept add-ons without adequate sources, and items that backup WP:N and WP:RS - maybe SatuSuro 10:35, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Certainly some kind of list consolidation needs to happen. The red links should go as a minimum. Other suggestions? --Merbabu (talk) 12:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I think this article should be renamed to "Indonesian National Awakening", rather than "Indonesian National Revival". Please put your thoughts on Talk:Indonesian National Revival". thanks --Merbabu (talk) 12:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Following on from the archived discssion about lists- and item 8 above - the following list is considered a prime candidate - details are at bother the article talk page and at the Afd discussion: -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Biggest_Indonesian_Philanthropists SatuSuro 06:30, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Any general comments regarding the problems of lists in this project would be appreciated - thank you SatuSuro 11:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Within WikiProject Companies I am trying to establish guidelines for all Lists of companies by country, the implementation of which would hopefully ensure a minimum quality standard and level of consistency across all of these related but currently disparate articles. The ultimate goal is the improvement of these articles to Featured List status. As a WikiProject that currently has one of these lists within your scope, I would really appreciate your feedback! You can find the draft guidelines here. Thanks for your help as we look to build consensus and improve Wikipedia! - Richc80 (talk) 21:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, id:PETA was a Japanese-controlled army unit of WWII vintage. There are a couple of links to the dab page Peta which should point to a suitable article, but as far as I can tell, there isn't one. Is there anyone here who could translate the article on the Indonesian wiki and create a stub? (See Sarwo Edhie Wibowo and Cases of controversial relations with the Axis of World War II for existing links, and Suharto for an unlinked instance.) TIA Mr Stephen (talk) 21:55, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

While the topic is deserving of a wikipedia article, and I could translate the article, I cannot stress enough the inappropriateness of this. Using ID articles for EN is not on if the ID version has poor or no referencing as is the case with most of ID, including the PETA article. Sorry, but any use of ID as verification for EN must be hit on the head immediately. thanks --Merbabu (talk) 12:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

PETA is on my to-do list, as is improving Indonesian Army, but I have only just got hold of "The Army and Politics in Indonesia" (Crouch), and I'm only on page 55. I wonder what will happen at the end? :-) Davidelit (talk) 12:53, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

"The Army and Politics in Indonesia". That this topic is just one book, and not a multi-volume encyclopedia shows amazing succinctness. As for PETA, it only needs 2 or 3 referenced sentences to make a stub and the glory will be yours David. Grab it before someone else does. ;-) --Merbabu (talk) 13:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose translating ID wikipedia articles verbatim - unless they have adequate sourcing/ citing attached SatuSuro 13:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Ach, that just shows the risks of assumption. I assumed that "Rujukan" meant references, snd that Ensiklopedi Nasional Indonesia (ed. 1989) was soimething like the National Encyclopedia of Indonesia, and probably a RS. My apologies if I've suggested something awful. Regards, Mr Stephen (talk) 17:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Hey - nothing "awful" at all. Thanks for taking an interest. Peta article has since been created. We are just very wary not to bring across quality problems from ID. (although, I must admit this horse bolted years ago). Cheers - hope to see more people like yourself editing the Indonesia articles. --Merbabu (talk) 21:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I was disambiguating "peta" and I came across this missing article. Glad to see that one's been created—don't forget to finish off by redirecting in the articles I mentioned above, or I can do it in the next couple of days if no-one else does. Regards, Mr Stephen (talk) 22:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Kerokan is up for deletion. I'm not sure whether it's worth keeping. THoughts?--Merbabu (talk) 11:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Keep - it was and maybe still a standard health remedy used by dukunsin java - needs keep or do we get dukun up for delete as well? stub that needs work on SatuSuro 14:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete - What is there to expand here? Could be included in a section on popular misconceptions, or perhaps added to a list of "Easy ways to get infectious diseases" or as an aside in the Dukun article, but I cannot see how this article could stand on its own. If we had articles for all quack cures, we'd include changing names of ill new-born babies, shaving the head to bring better luck and not sewing after dark to avoid ill-fortune! Sorry Satu. Davidelit (talk) 02:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Nothing to apologise for - a good to see the western outsiders rational view - if one was to read kuncaraningrat's dutch source ' javanese culture' book - I am sure you could poo poo most of the 'superstitions' there as well - I am not concerned as to whether all the quack cures as in your outsider point of view - is in fact a good way of dismissing them - I would consider that if this in an online encyclopedia - then there are indeed a number of generally past cultural practices that might raise the ire of more modern or western educated readers - but which were part of the traditional methods of attempting to work in their world views - (as for changing names - I'll email you on that one david) - the fact that they were cultural practices widely used in the past is sufficient to retain such articles - to dismiss is folly - you might as well cut half the encylopedia out - as there are things and people who would be seen as misconceptions - but unfortunately they did exist :) .cheers SatuSuro 02:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

In the schema of WP:INdonesia history, we have the history chopped up by thematic/temporal chapters. So far so good. In the present-past, though, we end with "Reformation Era (1998–present)" (aka Reformation (Indonesia). Hrmmmrupph. How many people really think we're in the "time of reformasi"? I'd like to hope so, but I think it's pretty dubious. Of course, we're stuck with presentism: who knows what, in hindsight, this will be the era of? However, calling this the Reformation Era is a stretch. Perhaps "Post-Suharto (1998-present)" would be a more neutral term? I don't really like tarring the present with Suharto's name, but there is a picking up of his pieces... is there a better descriptor?

On a related note, SBY is a rather long biography, which includes a long section on his Presidency. Might it not make more sense to move his Presidency to a new page, one, indeed, merged with the 1998-present? THUS: the new history of the present and recent past would be something like "Post-Suharto (1998-present)," which would include a cut and paste of the SBY presidency from SBY and cut and pastes from pages which depict the years of Megawati, Gus Dur, Habibie, etc. Thus, we'd have a substantially longer and more detailed period of the present (perhaps TOO long), biographies shortened appropriately, and a demotion (sadly, until proven otherwise) of reformasi as the defining element of the present. Smilo Don (talk) 09:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Has been reduced to a very small size on the basis of English Wikipedia policy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOT#DIR

instructions for re-insertion are at the talk page - please note external links or descriptions are not sufficient to re-insert the items - legitimate articles are

and for those concerned that their favourite shopping mall is lost forever the article has been placed on the talk page so that the intrepid editors prepared to create new articles can take them off the talk page and put them on the list once a legitimate article with the required levels of WP:N, WP:RS, and WP:V have been sufficiently addressed! SatuSuro 05:48, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I add this in Template talk:Infobox Former Country:

Could someone add this, please :

|Indonesia = {{#if:{{{_noautocat|<noinclude>yes</noinclude>}}}||[[Category:Former countries in Indonesia history|{{{common_name}}}, {{{year_start}}}]]}}

Merbabu said, I should bring this up in this project. Could we do that? because so many former countries in Indonesia, and you can find in this template former countries of Malaysia and Japan.aday^(talk) 05:20, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Dont support I do have a problem with what constitutes a former country and dont support it - it is a misuse of the term country - in english - maybe there could be a different term to use - Japan has always been japan I cannot see how it could have anything to do with former countries.

Also Former countries in Indonesia history - is not correct english for a start. Please reconsider terminology - this is English Wikipedia! cheers SatuSuro 05:38, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

They are not former countries. They were often vague concepts or notions of power. Also, info boxes require all info to fit into neat and simplistic parameters, when the reality was that these entities were not neat and simplistic, but complex. Info box doesn't work.

As for the technical request, I am not sure what it does. Could you please explain? thanks --Merbabu (talk) 09:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Considerable numbers of articles show evidence of utilising Honorifics in titles for rulers of the past - out of the Indonesan and Javanese cultural practice of always adding Honorifics -

however this is English wikipedia - and we have very speficic guidelines which show the use of honorifics is where at all possible not used: - see

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28biographies%29#Names

specially names section 2 and 3 honorifics

and

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_%28names_and_titles%29

for why English Wikipedia does not carry articles with titles of 'Sri Sultan' , 'Panembahan' - in most cases.

Thank you SatuSuro 08:53, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Post Suharto era - need a new title- anyone? SatuSuro 12:53, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Discussion moved

my opinion is, this board should be used to notify interested users of issues, but discussion should be at the specific article talk page - we currently have discussion in two places. (of course, project-wide or multiple article topics can be discussed here). I've combined discussions at Talk:Post-Suharto_Era#Title_of_article. Cheers. --Merbabu (talk) 05:45, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi group, Hamid Awaluddin has recently been appointed the Ambassador of Indonesia to Russia. The page was earlier a redirect, but as a notable person in his own right, he deserves an article. Perhaps someone within this project could expand the article a little? Terima kasih. --Россавиа ^Диалог 19:38, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

What Wikipedia is NOT

According to the following criteria for Wikipedia English - at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:LISTS

there is a difference between what has happened in many WP:EN Indonesia articles and lists

It is very important that we understand - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOT#DIR

As a consequence - there is a need for all editors trying to add material here understand

1. This is English Wikipedia where material is meant to be for english speakers not Indonesian speakers

1. Naming or linking an item in a list or article here means

• (a) 'an article exists about it using WP:RS, WP:N and WP:V guidelines as expected in English wikipedia

1. No article linked to = no mention

1. No WP:RS, or items to help WP:V or WP:N in an article - no listing of the article

1. A name as a red link does not make a legitimate entry in an article

1. WP EN is not an extension of WP IN - and direct copies or links to material in WP IN may be removed or deleted

Any feedback on this issue is appreciated SatuSuro 02:17, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

If you could give specific examples, it would help editors evaluate the above comment. Badagnani (talk) 02:22, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

• List of universities in Indonesia - classic example = no order, alpha or otherwise - adhoc addition of material that does not link to articles where place names are basically subterfuge - see also Afd Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of universities in East Java - Indonesia project need to be understood as a collection of articles about Indonesia not one gigantic collection of red link lists that never get worked on :) SatuSuro 02:28, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
  • If I may, I have a list of Russian universities under development in my namespace (haven't worked on it for a while), and perhaps the Indonesia list could work from some similar formatting (use that formatting if you so wish). The list is at User:Russavia/RusUni. Formatted lists provide some context that such lists don't seem to give. Refer to this list which was saved from Afd simply by reformatting like this, and the list as it stands now. All that needs to be done is to determine which universities would be notable (probably all of them would be?), and even if they are redlinks, the redlinks are important for article development - they will be developed sooner or later. --Россавиа ^Диалог 13:40, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Not relevant - left message at users talk page - the level of take up of red links added in this project is about zero as they are placed there by non english speakers/writers who never follow up their links SatuSuro 05:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_universities_in_East_Java

needs some attention as an editor has suggested simply lifting from the other project. I am very interested if anyone who reads this is in the slightest bit concerned (or not) that what happens informally all the time should actually be supported (or not) SatuSuro 05:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Currently, 655 of the articles assigned to this project, or 16.3%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 18 June 2008.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. Subsribing is easy - just add a template to your project page. If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 17:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

This project's subject has a page in the set of Lists of basic topics.

See the proposal at the Village pump to change the names of all those pages.

The Transhumanist 10:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.

• The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.
• The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.
• A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.

Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.

Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot (Disable) 21:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The Indonesian project will now be tagging dsiambig pages where the subject matter of the disambig page is contained within Wiki Project Indonesia scope SatuSuro 07:47, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Ethnicity in Indonesia is not an easy issue - as the tensions and attitudes between groups do not help creating articles in an online encylopedia that wishes to sustain WP:NPOV - when various groups claim either superiority or authority over other groups - it has been going on for thousands of years and no doubt will continue.

In the process of trying to create a level playing field where all ethnic groups are either described or explained in terms of well documented WP:RS and WP:CITE and WP:V we have in this project a number of articles and titles that I am sure some of us wish would rather just go away than confront us regularly: -

• Bias against/for the Chinese ethnic group as in articles about them.

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Indonesian_law_concerning_Chinese-Indonesian

has come and visited us- as a project - this needs project consensus - and as some editors might only visit this noticeboard one or two times a week if that - there is a very important issue of where such items should WP:AGF and consider http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:DEADLINE - and in effect hold on and discuss here first SatuSuro 04:35, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Any comments on how to either tag or to work with articles that appear to have serious WP:NPOV issues within the Indonesia project would be most appreciated here- thank you SatuSuro 08:02, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me there is a weasel words problem on articles with POV problems. This is probably a result of the use of the equivalent Indonesian passive voice expression that is translated as "...is considered [as/to be)". A search for those terms in the project pages might be a good place to start. Overall, it seems to me the vulnerable pages are those linked with ethnicity and of course those two favorites that Indonesia would be so much better without, religion and nationalism (especially military and history articles). Perhaps one week could be devoted to each broad area, with a running tag on the project page. Davidelit (talk) 13:58, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Please help expand this! Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 08:09, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Borobudur is currently the page of the day. woo hoo!!! Congrats. --122.248.156.9 (talk) 08:21, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Congratulations to the recent editors on the good work - and unfortunately some of the long departed editors who helped make the article what it was SatuSuro 08:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Can anyone help translate from Bahasa Indonesia into English? I need it for an article related to Gerakan Pramuka. ThanksChris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 09:52, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you could try Wikipedia:Translation/*/Lang/id? Badagnani (talk) 09:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

On behalf of some active and less active editors in this project - I ask you to please do not import material that has no WP:RS or possible material to find WP:CITE . This project has serious issues with material that uses WP Indonesia articles as a reference - the criteria for WP:N and WP:V in this project has been totally ignored in many stubs that use Indonesian based articles that have no refs or reliable 3rd party sources. Please take very careful note of this, thank you SatuSuro 11:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not from the Indonesian wiki, it's http://www.pramuka.or.id/id/organisasi/sejarah.htm Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 14:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for identifying the source - but in a way even worse (sigh) not a single citation or reference in sight - please, If you can possibly go to the trouble to find corroborating WP:RS - thanks SatuSuro 11:26, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Jamaah islam or Baasyir are not related in general with Surakarta. Please do not add them to this article. Thank You.

This item was placed into the text today and blanking occurred as well. There was nothing in this talk page as to why or who can claim authority for such a statement - Surakarta and its adjacent area is the area where these two items occur . Further explanation need to be made for such an unwarranted comment to be inserted.

Wikipedia is not censored - by editors specially - please take note. SatuSuro 11:32, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Indonesia - is not what should be happening in this project - any suggestions as to how we discourage this contravention of WP:NOT would be appreciated SatuSuro 03:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.

We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations.

A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.

We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 22:59, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

on a quick scan, the selection does not seem unreasonable. If we were to spend some time looking closely at it though, I am sure changes could be suggested. --Merbabu (talk) 06:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi all. With the changes changes to MOS on dates, I think we should come to ageement on which date format to use. I believe Indonesia dates should be in the so-called international format. Eg, “3 October 2008”, rather than “October 3, 2008”.

This came to my attention with this good faith edit to remove linking. As I understand it, the edits are in-line with new policy, the result of which means no auto conversion to reader's date preferences. Without such conversion, it is necessary to establish a convention. What say ye? --Merbabu (talk) 03:46, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

PS, I haven't been involved or followed the standards new date formatting, so please correct me here as required. thanks --Merbabu (talk) 03:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Let's decide on a format and stick to it. Davidelit (talk) 04:08, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Singapore-related articles seem to use international. Most, but not all, east Asian articles use US. Indian subcontinent uses either. It would be appropriate to choose international, IMO, for Indonesia-related articles. Please let me know if you need articles audited semi-automatically for dates, here. Tony (talk) 07:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I support STRONGLY this move. As an (former) Indonesian-educated, we are required to write date in the heading area. And the format is almost always DD/MM/YYYY. But to change all of the article to British/International English would be difficult as most Indonesian (save myself - I am the sole user of British-English spelling in my family) uses American english. Singaporean article and companies (such as Singapore Airlines) are known to use British spelling. w_tanoto (talk) 18:15, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Statement of "The city is Indonesia's third most populous after Jakarta and Surabaya, with approximately 2.5 million people." may not be true, because Bandung is more populous. But, Medan is the Indonesian third largest city in area.

Statement "A toll highway connects Medan to Belawan and ....." makes someone to think that Belawan is not part of Medan. In fact, Belawan is one of districts (kecamatan) in Medan. I suggest to replace the statement with "A toll highway connects Southeastern Medan to Northern Medan (Belawan) and .....".

Eldad Simanjuntak (talk) 04:24, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I am about to suggest that all Radio and TV articles in this project get protected from IP address additions, so that only those with enough english to understand the instructions can add material.

Also - many of the articles have non alphabetical lists of program names and presenters with no apparent rationale for being included in the articles - I am suggesting all these lists go to the tlak pages until someone gives a good reason why they should appear in the articles. SatuSuro 23:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Based on a search of Wikipedia's articles related to Indonesia, I've found some articles that I believe are about places in Indonesia, and could usefully have geographical coordinates added.

The articles in question are listed in Category:Indonesia articles missing geocoordinate data. At the time of writing, some examples included:

1. Batanta
2. Kapuas Hulu
3. Kelurahan Pondok Kopi
4. Legian
5. Museum Rudana
6. Natuna Besar
7. Takengon

...and there are many more, as well. At the time of posting this notice, there were 495 articles in this category needing geographical coordinates.

By adding coordinates, a Wikipedia reader can easily view the location on a street map, nautical chart, topographic map, by satellite photo, realtime weather map, and in many other ways. Coordinate data makes an article eventually appear in various services such as Google Maps' Wikipedia overlay, Google Earth, and Wikipedia's own internal map service. Coordinate data also helps readers looking for geographically-based data, such as locations near a reference point, or related information.

The articles are all marked with {{coord missing}} tags, which need to be replaced with {{coord}} tags that contain the location's latitude/longitude coordinates; or you might be able to add coordinates to an existing infobox. You can find out how to do this at the Wikipedia:Geocoding how-to for WikiProject members.

Please let me know if this is useful, or if I can help in any way. -- The Anome (talk) 22:37, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Attract lots of red links that appear over time, and then to never be matched to an article in english. As a consequence it is proposed that all lists will in a few months time either have red links either unlinked (grey links with no brackets at all) or moved to the talk page until such time that articles are created.

Please respond by supporting or offering alternative methods as to removing the red link syndrome that afflicts so many lists in this project. Thanks (not planning to do anything till January 2009) SatuSuro 05:10, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The old argument that redlinks are good as they prompt people to write articles simply does not apply here. Many of these lists are lifted from Indonesian Wikipedia or are produced by drive-by editors who are never heard of again. And even if the articles were created, many of them would be at risk of being PRODed for non-notability - ironic really as there are genuine gaps in the coverage of Indonesia, which some of us are filling as fast as we can. Davidelit (talk) 13:33, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps someone could add stuff about Lolo Soetoro's family to the Family of Barack Obama article? 76.66.201.13 (talk) 07:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. Why is there even an article about Lolo Soetoro? Davidelit (talk) 07:59, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi all, there is some discussion of Puputan on its talk page, and whether it should be merged with Running amok. It may be good for anyone more familiar with the material to help out. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Seems pretty notable to me ;) Cheers, Jack Merridew 13:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Maybe but the issue needs explaining either here or at the article talk pages SatuSuro 11:52, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi folks. I live in Bali, as my userpage says ;) I'm not new to editing Indonesian related stuff; see w:id:Istimewa:Kontribusi pengguna/Jack Merridew; w:jv:Astamiwa:Kontribusi pengguna/Jack Merridew, too. I've many thousand of edits over there and they're mostly to templates and their use in articles. I am well known to editors such as Revi, Borgx and Pras.

So, I've started tiding-up stuff related to Indonesia. The dozens of stub templates had a lot of raw html embedded in them and this is not a good thing; now moved along a bit. I expect to work on a lot of id:pages doing things like getting regency pages started, adding lambang and locator maps. If they're missing from en:wp, I'll transfer them from up from id:wp to Commons to get them available cross-project. I've already moved hundreds this way. I will also be looking at all of the navigation boxes and infoboxes; see here; I created the whole navbox scheme in use on id:wp for all the administrative divisions.

I don't mean to be stepping on any toes here; I look forward to working with whomever else is involved in id:articles. Cheers, Jack Merridew 12:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Please do not add unreferenced articles - most of wp:id is unreferenced - we do not need them here, this is wp:english we have issues about cross project copying - if you want the detail - read WP:NOT, WP:V, WP:RS, and review the project in terms of actually adding reliable 3rd party sources rather than adding copies from wp:id - just because they like lists with no content or substance does not mean that here at wp:english indonesia project needs to be clogged up with further unverifiable material. SatuSuro 13:10, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Relax, I know those policies and have quoted them to others many times. I'm a deletionist, I nuke non-NOT/V/RS shite from orbit. Did you get to the bottom of my user page? I've been here over four years. I said I'd likely start pages for regencies; there are many missing and most have an official .go.id site. I've added these to many of the pages on id:wp. I do a lot of cross project work, template and formatting changes. My bahasa is pretty basic, so I'll not be copying/translating anything. ;) Cheers, Jack Merridew 13:36, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Simply to add names of regencies into the project with a stub with no reference would constitute nuisance editing - we have hundreds of unreferenced stubs - the issue of what constitutes a useful addition would be a reliable source and verifiablity in english. Please reconsider your scheme in the face of this.

A particularly terrorising facility of indonesian editors with limited english is the add a list of red links that are never followed up on, or creating un alpha lists with no reference or substance beyond putting a name and then never returning - classic behaviour repeated monthly since wp:english has existed SatuSuro 13:17, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Ya, I've just been seeing all the stubs. Not to worry, you'll like what I do. I cut redink, too. Cheers, Jack Merridew 13:36, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh well you got the drift - at least you understand us - thanks for that SatuSuro 14:10, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

A raft of geo-template moves by User:Bennylin today (last night for him, it would seem), has prompted a need for a discussion of the proper naming of things. So;

• Navbox should have the same name as the primary article it offers access to subsidiary articles of.
  i.e. {{Bali}} for Bali
• redirects for Indonesian name are appropriate and many should be in-place per moves
  i.e. {{Jawa Timur}} redirects to {{East Java}}
• A lot of other conventions should follow from this. Nice, clear, naming of things (in English on en:wp), is a good thing.
• I have considerable experience with the corresponding templates on id:wp and will work on sorting out nits and inconsistencies.
• The templates should get iw:links to other wikis where there is a template
• see {{Bali}}, {{West Nusa Tenggara}} and {{East Nusa Tenggara}} as examples of the direction I think things should move.

Cheers, Jack Merridew 11:43, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

See also;

• w:id:Templat:Bali
• w:id:Templat:Nusa Tenggara Barat
• w:id:Templat:Nusa Tenggara Timur

Which I think have a better look.

They're based on;

• w:id:Templat:Navigasi ID dan
• w:id:Templat:Navigasi ID Provinsi

Cheers, Jack Merridew 13:25, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Good work - lets hope others come and look as well - SatuSuro 14:27, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. If folks like the look of the id:templates, I can build versions for here. We'll also have to talk about the naming of things like Kabupaten and Kecamatan pages. id:wp uses a lot of commas which get awkward. They also have too many disambiguation pages at primary names instead of making a call as to primary usage. Cheers, Jack Merridew 14:38, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

You can help expand this article with text translated from the corresponding article in Indonesian. (December 2008) Click [show] for important translation instructions. Machine translation, like DeepL or Google Translate, is a useful starting point for translations, but translators must revise errors as necessary and confirm that the translation is accurate, rather than simply copy-pasting machine-translated text into the English Wikipedia. Do not translate text that appears unreliable or low-quality. If possible, verify the text with references provided in the foreign-language article. You must provide copyright attribution in the edit summary accompanying your translation by providing an interlanguage link to the source of your translation. A model attribution edit summary is Content in this edit is translated from the existing Indonesian Wikipedia article at [[:id:Exact name of the Indonesian article]]; see its history for attribution. You may also add the template {{Translated page|id|Exact name of Indonesian article}} to the talk page. For more guidance, see Wikipedia:Translation.

There has been nothing in this project to know of the above activity.

Could someone please enlighten this project as to what is going on and also please read item 6 above.

Wikipedia en - WP Indonesia - does not need large numbers of unreferenced names and lists - that is not the reason for this particular project!

It also raises the question as to the general status of the articles that are found in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Indonesian_articles_needing_translation - do they have the standards of WP:RS, WP:V that we expect in the Wikipedia en - WP Indonesia context.

I would suggest a moratorium on new additions until there is consensus at this page that such and activity is actually a valid process for the betterment of this project.

SatuSuro 08:15, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Generally speaking, I would tend to discourage such translation drives as the id wikipedia for the most part appears to have an appalling low quality of referencing. In contrast, over the last 2 or 3 years on the Indonesia project on en wikipedia, we have managed to halt the growth of unreferenced material. On the other hand, if there are specific articles in id that *are* well-referenced (I doubt there's that many), then I can't see why referenced info can't be brought across. --Merbabu (talk)