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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ellie (The Last of Us)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 23:54, 16 May 2016 [1].

Ellie (The Last of Us)

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Nominator(s): – Rhain ☔ 07:15, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ellie is the deuteragonist and secondary playable character in the 2013 video game The Last of Us, developed by Naughty Dog and published by Sony Computer Entertainment. The character of Ellie is significant for the medium, as video games seldom feature such strong female characters. The design of the character was well-documented throughout development, and was very well-received after the game's launch, receiving high praise from critics. I wrote this article during my crazy The Last of Us project last year, and after feedback and changes from other editors, I feel satisfied that it is well-written and meets the featured article criteria. – Rhain ☔ 07:15, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. I agree with Rhain that strong, female characters which are also well-written like Ellie are not often seen in video games. What is also of importance, is of course "the kiss" that Ellie shares with another girl. I think it is games like The Last of Us that show how the medium has grown, what can also be narratively achieved. Concerning the article, I can't imagine there is anything else left to add to it. For a video game character, it's most important to have good and well-sourced information on its design and reception, which is exactly what's there. Full disclosure: while I have edited The Last of Us 122 times and also worked together with nominator Rhain on adding the gameplay image on that article, I have edited the article Ellie (The Last of Us) exactly once. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 14:58, 29 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Czar

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  • I won't be able to give a full review in the foreseeable future but I wanted to add a note on quality. Often FAC is used as an extended peer review or a means for nitpicking to one's personal tastes, but there is also a degree to which FAC vetting is a statement to the encyclopedia's best traits. Ellie (The Last of Us) is the video game WikiProject's single best character article. I've been through the rest (mostly lists) and this article (1) cites reliable, secondary sources that are about the character in specific, (2) has reliable, secondary sources that explain all major facets of the character (design, use, reception), and (3) perhaps most importantly, has no reliance on primary sources for its major points. It was well-written when I reviewed it a year ago at DYK and it has only improved since. This article is the gold standard for the project's character articles, and exemplifies what they should should aspire to be. czar 15:49, 3 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lede can do a better job of setting up the article. If I have no idea who Ellie is, the first paragraph goes into details about her appearances rather than telling me what she's about. I suggest (1) removing Naughty Dog from the first sentence and adding a line about why she's important. The strength of her appearance? Her media impact? (2) Explain her character first—the grit, her role in the game, before saying that she is mostly computer-controlled. (3) I agree with Nick that there is a tad too much passive voice, especially in the lede ("She is controlled by the artificial intelligence" → "The computer['s artificial intelligence?] controls her actions" and so on). (4) Explain her role in the game, and then give due weight to her appearances in other media (appearances—they don't need more than a quick mention, based on my read). Then you can have separate paragraphs for the development and reception histories. I can give it a coat of paint but wanted to suggest this reorganization first. czar 02:07, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Nick-D

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Oppose A lot of work has clearly gone into this article, but I'm afraid the structure and prose aren't of FA standard at present. I'm not familiar with these games or the character, and found that the structure didn't help me understand them. The prose is consistently overly-wordy, and the topics of paragraphs jump around a lot. The article would be much improved by a copy edit that focuses on condensing the wording (just say what happened, use active not passive tense where possible, strip out unnecessary quotes and details and check for duplication), improves the flow of the paragraphs' wording and restructures the article so it explains the character before getting into the details of how she was developed and portrayed. I have the following specific comments on the lead and first section which I hope illustrate these concerns:

  • The second para of the lead is a bit jumpy, and repeditive.
  • In particular, the sentence "Johnson also inspired Ellie's personality, prompting Druckmann to give her a more defensive role" - is unclear (what's Johnson's personality? what does "defensive" mean in this context?)
    • Please re-check what "defensive" means. It really isn't clear in this context (does she take action against enemies or similar?). Nick-D (talk) 11:20, 12 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sorry, but "to make her stronger when defending against hostile enemies" also isn't clear here (is she physically strong, emotionally robust, etc?). Do you mean something like the character was more active in fighting off enemies? Nick-D (talk) 11:09, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "who particularly praised her relationship with Joel" - what aspect of the relationship?
  • "Her role in Left Behind received great social commentary" - awkward wording
  • The "Character design" section would be considerably strengthened by starting it was an explanation of how the character was conceived. At the moment, the first sentence is confusing as it's not clear how Johnson fit the role given the role hasn't been explained.
  • "in a stronger and more defensive manner" - as above
  • "When portraying Ellie, Johnson faced challenges in performing scenes that made her feel uncomfortable" - what types of scenes were these?
  • "she needed to appear young enough for to make her relationship with Joel believable" - how old is Joel?
  • "A redesign of Ellie's physical appearance was revealed in May 2012" - revealed to whom? and why?
  • "Druckmann stated that the change was to make her look more similar to Johnson" - already explained in the previous para.
  • "Prior to the redesign, comparisons were made between Ellie and actress Ellen Page" - what kind of comparisons?
  • "Page's decision to come out on the same day as the release for Left Behind also sparked further discussion" - why?
  • "The team felt that Ellie was a very important aspect of the game" - what team? And given she's one of the main characters, isn't that obvious?
  • "When questioned about the inspiration for Ellie as a gameplay feature, Druckmann recalled when he and game director Bruce Straley were brainstorming ideas for Uncharted 2: Among Thieves (2009) and created a mute character who would summon the player to follow them, creating a "beautiful" relationship through gameplay alone" - unclear, over-long and inconsistent tense Nick-D (talk) 10:49, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Nick-D: I appreciate your comments; I tried to address most of them, although I'm unable to address some. For example, I'm unsure how to define which aspect of Ellie and Joel's relationship was praised (critics seemed to generally praise it as a whole, as demonstrated later in the article), and changing Ellie's appearance to look more similar to Johnson was not "explained in the previous para" (I constructed the paragraphs in that section by story, physical appearance, and her role in gameplay). It's unfortunate that you disagree with this candidacy, but I respect your opinion. If you have time, I'd greatly appreciate any more comments or advice you have for the rest of the article. The more improvements, the better. Thanks. – Rhain ☔ 12:48, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's a significant improvement, but I think that more is needed. I've just copy edited the lead to hopefully give a feel for what I'm thinking (please adjust/blanket revert as you see fit though!): in short, I think that the text should be more concise, and be written in the active voice. As some more specific comments:
  • Do video game reviews and similar really deserve to be labeled "social commentary"? When I saw this in the lead I was expecting the relevant material to be discussions by academic experts, social commentators and the like.
Comment: It's a societal issue; "social commentary" is a perfectly acceptable term to use here. Side note: Your comment seems to belittle video game reviewers, who could in fact also be experts in the fields you mentioned. --JDC808 ♫ 16:04, 12 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Are they? I've been a keen reader of video game reviews since the early 1990s BTW. Nick-D (talk) 11:09, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I personally don't know as I haven't researched the reviewers of this game/character, but one shouldn't assume that just because someone reviews video games, than they are not an expert in something else. --JDC808 ♫ 15:54, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Druckmann has stated that it was written with the intention of Ellie being gay, though preferred to leave it subjective" - this wording isn't clear
  • "it is revealed" - is the word "revealed" appropriate here? (was this hidden?)
Comment: It was unknown beforehand, so "revealed" is an acceptable term. --JDC808 ♫ 16:04, 12 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No it isn't: "revealed" is appropriate for things which were hidden, not things players had not yet been told because the plot hadn't gotten up to them. Nick-D (talk) 11:09, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
By definition, yes, "revealed" is acceptable in its usage here. Revealed is to make something unknown, known. --JDC808 ♫ 15:54, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Who are the various characters name-checked in the "Appearances" section?
Comment: What do you mean by "name-checked"? Is it that you are you asking, for example, who Marlene is?--JDC808 ♫ 16:04, 12 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Nick-D (talk) 11:09, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Conversely, Game Informer's Kimberley Wallace felt that the game's marketing was unbalanced, focusing too much on Joel and "hardly capitalizing on Ellie's importance".[37] Chris Suellentrop of The New York Times similarly felt that the game casts Ellie "in a secondary, more subordinate role".[38]" - this doesn't follow on from the first half of the para
  • "GN's Luke Karmali questioned Naughty Dog's motivation behind the kiss" - what did he feel this motivation was? Nick-D (talk) 11:20, 12 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Nick-D: Thanks again for your comments; I tried to address them. I also appreciate your edits. I'm currently unsure how to approach making the text more concise, but I'll try and take a look soon. And, of course, any comments or feedback is always appreciated. Thanks again! – Rhain ☔ 14:11, 12 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Nick-D: I just made some minor adjustments to the article—does this at all imitate the changes you were looking for? Anymore specific comments would be greatly appreciated; I'd really like to remove the oppose from this candidacy, and would be willing to do whatever is necessary in order to achieve that. Your cooperation, feedback and expertise is highly valued. Thank you for everything thus far, and for your continued advice. – Rhain ☔ 11:33, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's improved, but the prose is still a bit imprecise and wordy, and uses incorrect tenses at times. I've made some example copy edits which might help. Nick-D (talk) 11:52, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Nick-D: I made some minor edits, but I'm finding it difficult identifying many more issues. Some more specific examples or feedback would be great, when you have time. Thanks! – Rhain ☔ 01:08, 7 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the slow response. I've just made some more example edits. Please run through the article - and especially its early sections - looking for text written in the passive voice, and statements which don't really go anywhere. Nick-D (talk) 11:23, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by JDC808

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As per all my reviews. I always go through and do some copy/editing.

Lead

  • "Ellie is a fictional character in The Last of Us, a video game by Naughty Dog."
    • There's nothing technically wrong with this sentence, but I feel it would flow better if it was rearranged to say "Ellie is a fictional character in Naughty Dog's 2013 video game, The Last of Us." I'll leave this one up to if you want to change it or not.
  • Extra comment (does not affect this review): To my surprise, I found that Joel doesn't have his own article, but instead, a nice entry on the characters page. If there's enough information and coverage, I would suggest to create a standalone article for Joel as well.

Character design

  • Overall, a great section, but I do take concern with the meaning of something — "a mute character whose role was to summon and briefly accompany the player". What is it meant by "whose role was to summon"?

Appearances

  • This section could do a better job at saying when the appearances happen. There's one instance of it saying "Several weeks prior to the beginning of The Last of Us," but it doesn't tell us if this was the events of Left Behind or American Dreams.
  • There's a few ways to address this:
1. In the prose itself, state which story is happening. The only instance currently is the one I mentioned, but that can be reworked.
  • Example (first sentence). "In American Dreams, it is revealed that Ellie lost her mother at birth and grew up in an orphanage."
  • In reworking the one instance: "During the events of Left Behind, taking place several weeks before the beginning of The Last of Us, Riley...."
  • Either the end of the first paragraph or beginning of the second paragraph, rework so that it's understood that we're now in The Last of Us.
2. Similar to the first point, but switching the prose around so that it's in order of appearances (e.g., she appeared in The Last of Us before Left Behind, and some may argue that it should be this way).
3. In addition to doing the prose of the first point, break this section into two sub-sections: the first paragraph go under the sub-section titled "American Dreams and Left Behind" and the second paragraph under "The Last of Us".
4. Same as point 3 but switching the order like mentioned in point 2.
  • With this section only being two paragraphs, I'm in favor of point 1, but like I mentioned, some may argue that it should be in order of appearances. I'll let you decide how you want to do this.

Reception

@JDC808: Thanks for your comments and edits. I briefly looked into creating an article about Joel, but felt that Ellie was more notable; I'm not quite sure that Joel received the same coverage as Ellie, so I'm quite happy with his section on the characters page, but I might look into it again soon. Anyway, I went through and addressed your concerns. Let me know if there's anything else. – Rhain ☔ 20:59, 11 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I was still a bit confused on the summoned character bit (the edit you made did read better though). After checking the source, I understand it now. I've edited that part so it's clear, and with that, I give my Support. --JDC808 ♫ 22:06, 11 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note: This nomination seems to have stalled and there is no consensus for promotion after almost two months. Therefore, I will be archiving the nomination. --Laser brain (talk) 23:54, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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