Talk:Zydrunas Ilgauskas

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the page to Zydrunas Ilgauskas, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 22:34, 11 October 2014 (UTC)Reply

Žydrūnas Ilgauskas → Zydrunas Ilgauskas – This person's common name is Zydrunas Ilgauskas in English. Any google search will tell you this. As a general rule, regardless of the original spelling of a topic we use the English spelling. From WP naming guidelines: "when deciding between versions of a word which differ in the use or non-use of modified letters, follow the general usage in reliable sources that are written in the English language." - Metal lunchbox ^(talk) 19:41, 8 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Procedural close: this is another disruptive overflow from the discussion on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Lu vs. Lü in titles which relates to whether to conflate the pinyin "sixth vowel" ü into the "fifth vowel" u and is still in progress. All Lithuanian citizen bios have Lithuanian names, just like any other European bios on en.wp aren't stripped down to basic 26 letter early ASCII fonts, and per WP:CONSISTENCY there's no reason to target this particular Lithuanian. If the user wants to be a one-man re-opener of the Diacritics war then the simultaneous RM on Talk:Slobodan Milošević is a more appropriate visible place likely to attract consensus input. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:44, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

This move discussion is not related to the discussion you mention. What exactly is a "Procedural close" and why would it apply here? Please comment on this article and the move proposed above. There is no diacritics war. - Metal lunchbox ^(talk) 00:54, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

In the discussion on Lu vs. Lü User:Timmyshin correctly stated "And every single reference on the page of Žydrūnas Ilgauskas uses "Zydrunas Ilgauskas". WP:Pinyin discourages tone diacritics, not "ü", that's a different pronunciation (not tone) from "u". If you want to change MOS:CHINESE and WP:Naming conventions (Chinese) then make a case there, there is no reason to start a RM on a Lithuanian bio. The reason Timmy Shin mentioned it (correctly) is that it is typical of any European bio. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:18, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

The fact that every reference on the page uses this spelling tells me that something is probably not right. I don't follow such logic that this page some how can be used as an argument for how articles for Chinese people should be titled. That isn't how it works, and it's basically WP:Other stuff exists. I'm not proposing any such change to MOS:CHINESE, as I have already told you on a slightly more relevant talk page. I find your insistance that we discuss use of the letter "ü" in article names in a discussion spread across no less than five talk pages, confusing and distracting. Please stop. - Metal lunchbox ^(talk) 02:33, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

You're the one who proposed this RM. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:28, 10 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Well as it happens, the discovered fact that the subject of the RM had taken US citizenship a couple of weeks before the RM changes what would have been an unpleasant spur of a Chinese Pinyin discussion. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:46, 16 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

• Support only if every single diacritic is eliminated from title, at least the Lithuanian ones. This is not the Chinese Lü discussion so no need to involve that to complicate matters. But nominator probably should take a look at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)/Diacritics RfC if he/she has not already. The diacritics supporters won, but not overwhelmingly. I think nominator probably should seek other revenues (I'm not familiar with WP bureaucracy) if he/she seeks to overturn that RFC. I personally would support any guideline that WP community comes up with after a thorough discussion, but it has to be consistent. I absolutely will oppose having a Zydrunas Ilgauskas and another Žydrūnas Urbonas just because the former played mostly in the United States and the latter didn't. Timmyshin (talk) 02:43, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for point out that page, but no one "won". It was a proposed change to the article which was closed as "no consensus", so I don't see how it overrules the words on the article it didn't change. I think this is a fine forum for discussion of the title of the article about Zydrunas Ilgauskas. - Metal lunchbox ^(talk) 02:52, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

• You are right, I didn't really read it. But just curious, are you seeking to remove diacritics from all titles or just Ilgauskas? Timmyshin (talk) 02:57, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

If I were seeking to remove diacritics from all titles, this would certainly not be the place to do it. WP has no policy against diacritics and I am not looking to create one, but they are not mandatory either, see WP:DIACRITICS - Metal lunchbox ^(talk) 03:02, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

• Support. See SI Almanac or The Official NBA Guide. I think those can be considered the top authorities when it comes to the spelling of NBA player names. As far as this being a "European biography" goes, I must ask: Is ZI more notable for being a European, or for his basketball game? La crème de la crème (talk) 06:35, 9 September 2014 (UTC) Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/KauffnerReply

User:La crème de la crème we don't anglicise players of any sport who play in America until they change nationality. This is part of the context of WP:BLP accuracy across 10,000s of living person biographies. Although Žydrūnas Ilgauskas has not played often with the Lithuania national basketball he is not an American and should not be represented as such. The two books you have cited use basic 26 letter fonts and are not reliable sources for the spelling of names outside 26 letter fonts. Sports Illustrated Almanac 2010 gives "Francois" and "Andre" for French and Belgians on p.550, if we adjust the MOS of en.wp to Sports Illustrated MOS we won't have to strip correct spellings from let's say 10,000 odd Lithuanian bios, we'll be stripping the entire article stock of very roughly 500,000 bios of French, Spanish, German accents. Likewise Sporting News Publishing Company 2006 is also a 26-letter source with "Jose" "Gonzales" and so on for Dominican and Mexican nationals. Your own User name becomes La creme de la creme in Sporting News Publishing Company MOS and Sports Illustrated MOS. But we don't use their MOS, all our articles use full Unicode fonts. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:02, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Yeah we don't use their MOS, we use our own, which very, very clearly says that we use the common name in reliable English language sources if one exists. It makes no mention of changing nationalitiy, a rule that you just made up. The limitation of 26 letters and unicode is also irrelevant. You can look at literally every single WP guideline on names and article titles. Just one example, at WP:Naming conventions (sports people), "As with any other biographical article, the name of an article about a sportsperson (or other type of notable gamester, such as a professional poker or chess player) should be the most commonly used name of the person." - Metal lunchbox ^(talk) 14:11, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Even the humblest home computer can handle Unicode nowadays, so I doubt that's the problem. Perhaps publishers worry that copy editors will screw up unfamiliar diacritics. Be that as it may, all we can do is follow the best available sources -- and accept the fact we live in a world where not everyone can spell la crème de la crème correctly. La crème de la crème (talk) 11:09, 9 September 2014 (UTC) Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/KauffnerReply

• Oppose Just so my vote is recorded. I think this can be solved through a redirect from the anglicized name. Just because somebody comes to the USA doesn't mean they change their birth record, their official name, no matter what Sports Illustrated or the Sporting News might report. What the redirect does is it helps American's find the article, where they might actually learn something outside of their bubble. Trackinfo (talk) 07:42, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

• It sounds like American readers are a bunch of ne'er do well students and you're going make 'em earn it. I don't think any guide for writers recommends copping an attitude like this. Do you think British sources do things any differently? Here's The Independent: [1] La crème de la crème (talk) 11:09, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

What's the relevance of The Independent, it's newsprint, newsprint has time deadlines, speedy MOS, and we don't follow newsprint MOS on en.wp. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:25, 10 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

• Support. In addition to playing nearly his entire career in the U.S., where he continues to work and reside, he is in fact a U.S. citizen, which is a further argument to move. Those who !oppose based on citizenship/nationality should reconsider their !votes. Dohn joe (talk) 13:53, 9 September 2014 (UTC)Reply
• Support on basis of August 3 2014 American citizenship - okay, now that's completely different from the pointy and disruptive nomination. As per Martina Navratilova when an East European takes American citizenship and swears allegiance, they lose their original name. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:25, 10 September 2014 (UTC)Reply
• Support: Thanks Dohn joe for the link to his becoming a US citizen. -Zanhe (talk) 04:50, 11 September 2014 (UTC)Reply
• Support Generally known by his name without diacritics—because he is professionally active in the U.S., and now has become a U.S. citizen (which doesn't entirely discount arguments on nationality as claimed above, but surely does make them weaker). —innotata 05:45, 14 September 2014 (UTC)Reply
• Support. No evidence that this RM is disruptive or pointy (the suggestion above to this effect is entirely uncalled for IMO), and the case is well made. If there are guidelines that indicate otherwise, they should be changed. If there are any relevant open RfCs or similar discussions, then they should consider this case, not vice versa. The closed RfC referred to above closed as no consensus, so it's not relevant, the existing guidelines and policies stand for now. Andrewa (talk) 18:21, 16 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

That isn't the most recent RFC, the most recent RFCs were 2011-2012 specific to WP Hockey and WP Tennis where opposition to full fonts was centred. Both closed strongly in favor of consistency with the rest of the article corpus. But that is irrelevant because we now know we are discussing an American citizen. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:50, 16 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

Yes... and your reply therefore appears to be similarly and completely irrelevant to this RM. Please link to any relevant discussion. Andrewa (talk) 02:02, 17 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

I already linked to the Chinese pinyin discussion which provoked this RM. There are no relevant RFCs dealing with spelling American citizens as Americans. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:17, 17 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.