Talk:Welsh people
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Harvard Refs
editJohn Davies was cited in 10 different places and citations were a mix of bare Harvard format and duplicates of full references. As Harvard referencing is used on the page I have converted all 10 to Harvard refs with a single full citation (in further reading). This is much neater, and if the change sticks, I propose to clean up other duplicated refs in a similar manner.
However, it could elicit discussion because referencing style is one of those questions. I used Harvard refs rather than the Rp template to regularise these because the page already used Harvard referencing - just not in the appropriate template. If anyone has strong feelings that we should not be using Harvard referencing, please can we discuss now before I spend any more work on the page. Just this one change has taken me over an hour and a half, so I don't want to waste my time if its all going to get reverted. -- Sirfurboy (talk) 11:54, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
ETA: It occurs to me that editors may not reply to this if they are not sure what the difference between referencing systems is. To see a Harvard reference, one of the ones I improved, click reference [13] in the second paragraph of the article. See how it has "(Davies, 1994, p.54)" but if you click that you see the full citation for the book, which can be found at the bottom of the page (currently in "Further Reading", but that will probably move into "References" if we are all happy with Harvard refs). Clicking ref [12] in the paragraph above shows the more usual referencing style. One advantage of Harvard refs is that you can re-use refs whilst updating the page number and inserting quotes, and each re-use is quite easy. Re-using the other ref style needs the ref either to be repeated in full when referencing different page numbers, or else adding the Rp template to insert a page number beside the ref.
The disadvantage of Harvard refs is most people on Wikipedia are familiar with the other citation style, and that is what the tools put in for you.
This page was using Harvard style for the Davies quotes but not for just about everything else. So, despite my improving the Harvard referencing earlier, I am not sure I can recommend that we stick with Harvard. If we don't, I will convert all those Harvard refs to a single ref using the Rp template for page numbers and efn notes to insert the quotations. But it would be helpful to get some input as to which editors of this page would prefer.
Do we need an RfC? Or should I just pretend all the Davies quotes were not in Harvard format and go back to the more standard ref style? :) -- Sirfurboy (talk) 21:55, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
- Whilst helping out with the Timeline of Welsh history I got used to both sfn and rp referencing. I'm guessing Harv is one of those. Anyhow, I don't think anyone's going to revert you for improving referencing, even if they are a mixture of styles. Tony Holkham (Talk) 22:39, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, Tony. The sfn footnotes are Harvard references (the only minor difference is that sfn does not put in brackets around the reference). When you used sfn footnotes, were there mixed styles on the same page? Or was the whole page using sfn? -- Sirfurboy (talk) 22:50, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
- No need to answer that. Just took a look at the page. Yes, it used both, and it solved the compatibility issue between the two by having a section after references called "sources". Looks like major sources then are in Harvard style and single use refs are left in the normal ref style. -- Sirfurboy (talk) 22:53, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
People born/grew up in Wales of non-Welsh descent are Welsh or not?
editI've come across multiple individuals of Welsh ancestry who believe someone born in England to Welsh parents = Welsh, even if they grew up in England. And the same individuals believe that someone born in Wales to English parents = English, regardless of whether or not they grew up there. Would someone of non-Welsh ancestry, particularly first gen English "immigrants", consider themselves Welsh? Would they be allowed to consider themselves Welsh? We need more research on Welsh ethno-nationalism, particularly as it's often criticized as being racist towards non-Caucasian people who grew up in Wales. --2A00:23C4:3E08:4000:9894:82:6973:5EA4 (talk) 12:04, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- WP:NOTFORUM. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:24, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- Great, but I specifically asked if there was any research into this and whether it should be mentioned. If anyone has any background knowledge on this it would help in locating relevant info. (Insufferable xenophobia and racism in England is not a get out of jail free card for the Celtic nations, you know)2A00:23C4:3E08:4000:69C7:E9EF:AB27:91F9 (talk) 13:43, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
- But you asked unanswerable questions like "Would someone of non-Welsh ancestry, particularly first gen English "immigrants", consider themselves Welsh?" - it depends. "Would they be allowed to consider themselves Welsh?" - of course, it's up to them. There may be some useful info and links at Cultural relationship between the Welsh and the English. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:59, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
- Great, but I specifically asked if there was any research into this and whether it should be mentioned. If anyone has any background knowledge on this it would help in locating relevant info. (Insufferable xenophobia and racism in England is not a get out of jail free card for the Celtic nations, you know)2A00:23C4:3E08:4000:69C7:E9EF:AB27:91F9 (talk) 13:43, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
- This article is about the Welsh ethnic group not residents of Wales CicolasMoon (talk) 15:31, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
I fail to see how people not descended from historical Brittonic populations, who speak only English, likely have names from languages which are not Welsh could in any sense be classed as 'Welsh' whatever they identify as and whatever others identify them as.
However, interestingly, only around 58% of the people in Wales descend from Brittonic peoples. And I'm willing to bet good money many of the people in Wales claiming to be 'true Welsh' today ultimately trace their descent from the Danish-like source interpreted as largely representing the Anglo-Saxons (22%), the Norwegian Vikings (3%), or from further south in Europe, possibly related to French immigration during the Norman period (13%).
Perhaps the Welsh identity is rather flimsy. Like all based on vapid concepts of 'blood'. Perhaps it's more of a geographic identity today outside of the actual Welsh-speaking parts of Wales. Sock of indef blocked User:92.14.216.40— Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.79.26 (talk) 08:39, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Fortunately, we base WP articles on what can be verified in sources, not on what random editors do or don't fail to see or are willing to gamble on the truth of. I'll go so far as to agree that ethnic identities can be confusing and frustrating and illogical; other than that, do you have a point relating to improving the article? happy days, LindsayHello 10:07, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
WP:NOTFORUM
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Collapsing again. If anyone wants to suggest a change to the wording of the article, make a proposal and discuss it here. If you just want to have a discussion about your interpretation of the term "ethnic group", take it elsewhere. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:35, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
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- Like the OP I am also heavily Welsh by descent. Like the OP, my kids are also mixed race. I find it interesting how irredentist claims such as the "lost Welsh lands" are more prominent than say, encouraging or acknowledging people like myself as Welsh, despite no culture being passed down. Wales isn't Eastern Europe, or the German diaspora prior to WWII. This is an interesting convo but is largely limited to personal experiences and not really of any academic merit, imho. I am not in the slightest bit Welsh as I wasn't raised in the culture. OP, don't let your blood define you. --Trans-Neptunian object (talk) 21:39, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
What?
edit"Native to Wales" - also "includes people of Welsh descent". Pick one - I have a large amount of Welsh descent, but I am absolutely not Welsh. Nobody counts me as Welsh - certainly not census data. I was born and raised in England, so I am English. Nobody in Wales is "claiming" me (not that I care), so where is the lead claims coming from? SinoDevonian (talk) 22:10, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
- This article is about ethnicity, not national identity 2A02:C7C:4C89:3C00:D905:5E65:B307:B93B (talk) 13:52, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
Birth or conception of Wales
editI have removed some quite longstanding text from the lead [1] allegedly citing John Davies as saying Wales as a nation can be traced back to the 4th or 5th centuries. It is not altogether wrong per Davies, but it is a poor summary of his argument. It is a nuanced opinion, and I suggest that anyone wishing to restore this should first create a section in the main that discusses the nuances before creating a lead summary. What Davies says is (inter alia):
It is also supported by Gwyn A. Williams, perhaps because of his desire to give a neat symmetry to his interpretation of the history of Wales — that the nation came into existence during the death-throes of one empire and went out of existence during the death-throes of another. If it is accepted that a nation has an organic nature similar to that of a human being — a concept full of difficulties — then perhaps it is not over-fanciful to consider 383 as the year of the conception of the Welsh nation and to accept Magnus Maximus as the father of that nation.
And it was the conception rather than the birth of the nation which occurred in 383, for the word Cymry had not been adopted as the name of the nation and Wales was not its only territory. (Davies, 1994:54)
And he goes on to discuss the old north, the surviving literature etc. as being important to the idea of Wales, but he has already spoken of the above as being the mythology of the foundation of Wales. His point is that we find the ideas of a people here, the conception of an idea of Wales that has its birth later on. Our text {{tq|The historian John Davies argues that the origin of the "Welsh nation" can be traced to the late 4th and early 5th centuries, following the end of Roman rule in Britain)) is therefore, as I say, not wholly wrong, but certainly not a fair summation of his argument. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 16:02, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
"Welsh nation" listed at Redirects for discussion
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The redirect Welsh nation has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 13 § Welsh nation until a consensus is reached. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 15:33, 13 May 2023 (UTC)