Talk:Thomas Traherne
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Pantheist
editI've read that Traherne's work so closely links God and his creation that he might as well be a Pantheist. He is quoted by cleargy who have a new age philosophy because of this. Recently a friend of mine brought a book over that seemed to be addressed to Evangelical Christians that had a Traherne quote in it. I'd love to hear from others who have definite thoughts about Traherne and what philosophies his work is used to support.
- Pantheist? Remember that he is grouped in with the Metaphysical poets, as the entry makes clear, and their work is often known for its complicated (forced?) metaphors which makes a close reading of the whole work a requirement before making a judgement such as the above. Taking sentences out of context can be misleading especially with such an original poet as Traherne. As far as his personal beliefs--from his more polemical writings it seems clear he was firmly in the camp of the Church of England. He has had a great influence in the 20th century due to his rediscovery, ie. C.S. Lewis often refers to him. I think if one reads Samuel Johnson's defense of Traherne's contemporary Thomas Browne with regards to his Orthodoxy it could as easily apply to Traherne himself.
Traherne and pantheism
editI can see why Traherne might be used by some to suppport pantheism. He says bold and imaginative things about God's revelation in and through the created world. Taken out of context these quotes might sound 'pantheistic'. The real question when judging whether or not it is 'safe' to read someone though is surely not what teachings their writings are used to support (anything can be made to support anything if it is twisted enough) but what teachings and writings have informed their work in the first place. Traherne's sources are many and varied. His most frequently quoted source is the Bible, after which he relies on the Church Fathers, and the traditional teaching of the Christian Church. The interface between Scripture and reason is a huge part of his dialogue. The newest manuscript discoveries of his work show him to be very interested in doctrinal debates such as the Calvinist/Arminian debate and the Pelagian heresy. He is deeply imbedded in the Christian tradition and goes to some length to defend orthodox Chrisitan doctrine.
Saints banner and category
editBased on this individual being included in the Calendar of saints (Anglican Church of Australia), I am adding the Category:Anglican saints and the Saints WikiProject banner to this article. I am awaiting reliable sources which can be used to add the content to the article. John Carter 16:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Confusion over dates
editI'm confused. The passage beginning "His poems have a curious history" suggests that they weren't published before they were found on a market stall in the 1890s. Then we have a reference in the Influence section which says that the character of Thomas Clarkson quotes from (and correctly attributes) one of the poems in a recent film. Our article on Thomas Clarkson says he died in the 1840s. I presume this is just an anachronism in the film. But if so, what's the point in including it in this article? Or did the poems circulate before they were found on this market stall?
Telsa (talk) 12:11, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
- The quote in the film comes from the poem The Salutation which was first published by Dobell in 1903. Clarkson cannot have known the poem from a published source, so it must therefore be an anachronism. But I suppose it says something about the impact of Traherne's poetry on English literature that it is so generally assumed that his works must have been widely known long before the 20th century. To quote another line from The Salutation: "Behind what curtain were you hid from me so long!" Man vyi 15:32, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
- I see, thanks. Yes, I agree. I came across Traherne some years ago, and it never occurred to me that it had been rediscovered (discovered, even?) in this way. I am inclined to remove the reference from the "influences" section, though, as it seems as though the influence was on the scriptwriter rather than the historical character. Telsa (talk) 06:23, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Substantial Changes
editI have added a considerable amount of content to Traherne's article based on a number of sources which I have listed under "References." Every new bit of content is duly sourced, and I will go over it soon to add in-text citations to verify from where each new bit of information comes. I believe Traherne, a man whose works are roundly admired in academic circles by virtually unknown outside of them, deserves a much more thorough treatment than he receives here, and I will likely be adding even more to it in the upcoming few days. If you have any questions about what I have added, please leave me a comment on my talk page. - Sestet (talk) 03:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Removed the popular culture references (not significant "me too" list)
editI don't like these type lists in articles. They smack of trivia, which is not liked by MOS and other guidelines. The following bullet point statements were removed when I renovated the article. --ColonelHenry (talk) 02:20, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
- A stanza from Traherne is quoted in the movie Amazing Grace, by abolitionist Thomas Clarkson. Clarkson quotes, "Strange treasures in this fair world appear..." and goes on to say it is from a poem by Thomas Traherne.
- The first stanza of Traherne's "The Rapture" is employed in the form of a riddle, by an assassin of sorts called a "warrior-poet", in The Broken God, a 1992 science fiction novel with philosophical leanings written by David Zindell.
- The Incredible String Band quote from Traherne extensively in the song "Douglas Traherne Harding" on their album Wee Tam and the Big Huge, relating the philosophy of Traherne to that of Douglas Harding.
- The title and some of the thought of Richard Wilbur's poem "A World Without Objects Is a Sensible Emptiness" comes from Traherne's Centuries of Meditations, specifically Second Century, Meditation 65.
- Phil Rickman frequently refers to Traherne's poetry in his Merrily Watkins series of novels.
- In his award-winning book The Snow Leopard (Bantam: 1978, pp. 216–7), Peter Matthiessen cites the mystical, even Buddhist-like sense of nature found in Centuries of Meditations.
- I don't agree. The popular culture references show that his work has penetrated thence, contrary to claim made above in 2008. Xxanthippe (talk) 03:36, 30 November 2012 (UTC).
- Indicate how any of them really matter. It's not like Eliot citing the legend of Philomela (and Ovid) in The Waste Land. This is a passing 10 seconds of film...most people have never seen, or writing no one reads. These references aren't even notable by a bare minimum standard.--ColonelHenry (talk) 05:13, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
- I don't agree. The popular culture references show that his work has penetrated thence, contrary to claim made above in 2008. Xxanthippe (talk) 03:36, 30 November 2012 (UTC).
Fluff removed from works/publication history/posthumous
editAs so little of Traherne's work had (apparently) survived his death, Traherne was previously labeled a "missing person" in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. In 2004, thanks to a number of additional discoveries, his status changed so much that he is no longer labeled a "missing person". He is now highly regarded, such that if there were a picture of him (no portrait of Traherne has been authenticated), he would be put next to other well-knowns such as Wordsworth.[1]
The discoveries responsible for his renewed vindication as a theologian, beside the poems, are the Centuries of Meditations, a collection of short paragraphs or meditations reflecting on Christian life and ministry, philosophy, happiness, desire and childhood. These are gathered in groups of a hundred, four complete centuries and an unfinished fifth. Some of these, evidently autobiographical in character, describe a childhood from which the "glory and the dream" was slow to depart. Of the power of nature to inform the mind with beauty, and the ecstatic harmony of a child with the natural world, the earlier poems, which contain his best work, are full. In their manner, as in their matter, they remind the reader of William Blake and William Wordsworth. He quotes George Herbert's "Longing" in the newly discovered Lambeth manuscript.
His poems were published, in modernized spelling, in The Poetical Works of Thomas Traherne, B.D (1903), with an original-spelling edition following in 1906, and in Poems of Felicity (1910). The Centuries appeared in 1908; Select Meditations was not published until 1997.
- Removed in revision. Seems redundant and insubstantial fluff.--ColonelHenry (talk) 05:58, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
For accounts of these discoveries see the Times Literary Supplement articles by Julia Smith and Laetitia Yeandle (7 November 1997) and Denise Inge and Cal Macfarlane (2 June 2000). These two finds are a primary factor contributing to Traherne's now being considered as much as a theologian as a poet.
- Removed until I can find these articles and cite their findings appropriately. They seem good sources and I look forward to reading them, but this way of referencing them isn't MOS-compatible.--ColonelHenry (talk) 06:09, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
References
- ^ Slayton, Mary (2005). "A Poet-Cleric's ‘Little Booke’". Modern Age 47(3). pp. 266–269.
Thomas Traherne (comments from Xxanthippe's talk page, DEC2012)
editNOTE: This is a comment I placed on Xxanthippe's talk page after the user reinserted unimportant popular culture references into the article (those excised as per the above). I formatted this section 09DEC12 to maintain continuity, after Xxanthippe placed the comments here (after dismissing them, quite presumptuously, as an "impertinence"). --ColonelHenry (talk) 14:47, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
I remove the missive below from my talk page and put it where it belongs. Xxanthippe (talk) 03:42, 9 December 2012 (UTC).
- Pursuant to WP:HTRIVIA and WP:IPC, I have chosen to remove again the insignificant/unimportant/non-notable cultural mentions that were readded by you earlier this evening. Please refrain from adding such trivia unless it were to indicate some relevant and salient materials necessary for informing the reader about Traherne's life and works or an interpretation of his works. Just saying that Traherne or a line of his poetry was mentioned in insignificant places does not edify and is not notable, rendering inclusion rather meritless and puerile. --ColonelHenry (talk) 02:51, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
I have put the references to Traherne in popular culture back into the article. They were put in by early editors, removed by ColonelHenry, replaced by me, and removed again by Henry. Such references are encouraged by Wikipedia:In popular culture, and for Traherne they will be of interest to literary and cultural historians who trace how appreciation of his work made the transition from antiquarians and scholars in 1900 into high culture in the 1930s (Huxley'sTexts and Pretexts of 1932 is the earliest known to me but there may be others, and Finzi) and then finally to the popular culture of today. Since the process has taken place in the last century sources for such a study will be ample. The views of other editors on this matter will be useful. Xxanthippe (talk) 09:45, 10 December 2012 (UTC).
- I agree with ColonelHenry's view on this matter, but the edit-warring in the article itself should stop until some sort of consensus is reached here. I disagree that "such references are encouraged by Wikipedia:In popular culture" (an essay that carries little, if any, weight), since the section in the article was clearly what the essay calls "indiscriminate". If someone wants to write a sourced prose passage on Traherne's reception in the wider culture, they should post it on this page, and only if it gains consensus should it be added to the article. Deor (talk) 11:20, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you, Deor. I have no objection to Xxanthippe readding the material IF (and only if) he/she can establish how these trivia are relevant/salient in understanding Traherne's work or life. However, I do not see these as anything other than useless references that don't add anything to any understanding of Traherne. Therefore, their opportunity to add anything of merit to the article is rather improbable. --ColonelHenry (talk) 12:33, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Quotations section
editI am also inclined to remove the "Quotations" section since we do have a wikiquote article, and if they are salient to mention vis-a-vis any discussion of legacy/analysis of his works, I will likely incorporate them there in the relevant section. --ColonelHenry (talk) 12:33, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- The quotations are valuable as they give the passing reader a flavor of Traherne's unique style. The argument that material should not be included in an encyclopedia if it is available elsewhere is not tenable as it would imply that encyclopedias, which are compilations of such material, should never be written. Xxanthippe (talk) 23:42, 10 December 2012 (UTC).
- Then why even bother having "wikiquote"? More apt, why bother directing people to wikiquote? The quotes herewith shouldn't just be left there as bullet-point list of quotes, they should be analyzed if possible to explain how they are relevant to themes and motifs in Traherne's works and thought and put in an appropriate analysis section. If they were incorporated into an analysis/interpretation section, that is where they would be best appropriate and able to edify. Consider the following: (1) As per the essay WP:QUOTE/WP:QUOTEFARM, Quotations that can't be justified for use in an article directly may be placed in Wikiquote and a Wikiquote template put on the article to inform readers that there are relevant quotations regarding the subject. (2) Do not insert any number of quotations in a stand-alone quote section. This is relevant here, as a quotation section in an article serves no purpose that is not redundant to or better served by Wikiquote. As such, a pretty turn of phrase--in this case several quotes in their own section--is best left to wikiquote. To think otherwise, in your words, would be "impertinent." --ColonelHenry (talk) 03:57, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
- The quotations are valuable as they give the passing reader a flavor of Traherne's unique style. The argument that material should not be included in an encyclopedia if it is available elsewhere is not tenable as it would imply that encyclopedias, which are compilations of such material, should never be written. Xxanthippe (talk) 23:42, 10 December 2012 (UTC).
GA Review
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Reviewer: Michael! (talk · contribs) 11:14, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
First GA revieweditPlease also have a look at the Wikipedia articles of other, contemporaneous English poets, like Henry Vaughan or John Milton. None of these is a GA, but you might get some ideas how to improve this article. Michael! (talk) 13:10, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Problems and suggestionsedit
Don't worry, no hard feelings. It is your right to disagree and I don't have any problems with that. I suggest we leave this increasingly frustrating discussion as it is and wait for a proper second opinion.
Meanwhile, I'm willing to give this review a fresh start and make remarks on issues I didn't address before, but only if you don't have objections to it. If you prefer me to be silent while waiting on a second opinion, that's perfectly fine to me. Michael! (talk) 11:49, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
GA criteriaedit
ConclusioneditThinking about it again, I can't pass this article as a GA right now. Furthermore, I would like to have a second opinion. Michael! (talk) 14:14, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Second opinion needededitAnother shortcoming of the article is that it fails to give the reader a taste of Traherne's idiosyncratic prose style. A number of illuminating quotations from his work were removed by an editor with insistent opinions who has made major changes to the article. I think that the current article reads more like a routine academic paper (inreach) than an article for an encyclopedia (outreach). Xxanthippe (talk) 22:18, 13 March 2013 (UTC).
Could anybody invest some time here in providing a second opinion? Thank you in advance! Michael! (talk) 19:22, 14 March 2013 (UTC) An "In popular culture" section would be interesting. Xxanthippe (talk) 21:45, 14 March 2013 (UTC).
Outside opinioneditI haven't read this article in detail for the other GA criteria, but if the only hold-up here is that it includes no summary of each of his published works, I would say that this is not a significant issue for GA, which only asks that "broad aspects" be covered. If a specific, major work is not discussed in the article, that would fall under "broad aspects", but that doesn't appear to be the issue here; so far as I understand Michael's concerns, it seems like a simple formatting concern (whether Roman Forgeries is discussed under the header "Theology and ethics" or "Works"), and therefore not a concern for the GA criteria under my understanding. To compare some random Featured Articles (a far higher standard), like Chinua Achebe, Mario Vargas Llosa, and George Moore (novelist), they don't have anywhere near the level of detail that's being asked for here in their "Works" sections, either in textual information or in wikilinks for each work. Just my two cents, and all this comes with the disclaimer that I'm no Traherne expert. But since an outside opinion was requested, I thought I'd offer one. Thanks to both editors and reviewer for your work on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 03:28, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Second GA revieweditThis is a restart of the first GA review (above). There were several points of disagreement which needed a careful second opinion. Now I can continue with the reviewing process in this fresh, new section and make remarks on things I couldn't address before. Michael! (talk) 11:49, 16 March 2013 (UTC) Wikilinkingedit
Several remarksedit
More will follow.
More remarksedit
The Modern Language Review, 1933, Vol.28(3), pp.386-387 [Peer Reviewed Journal], which can be accessed via JSTOR.
Michael! (talk) 12:09, 17 March 2013 (UTC) Article structureeditI like the article structure ideas proffered on your userspace, and will move up the publication history section. I still am unsure, per the above, about the necessity. I will add an introductory paragraph or two for such a section, but I don't think it's going to be as exacting as you want it to be and as the second opinion contributors have said is not necessary. As a personal preference, I tend to disagree with Further Reading as a level 2, I believe that should be part of a larger notes/reference/citations/biblio section as a level 3, and dislike the aesthetic of it being a separate section.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:52, 16 March 2013 (UTC) I chose "life and time" because three of the four are published posthumuously and are not during his "lifetime."--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:58, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Added a few photos of things relevant to his life because there aren't any portraits of TT. Trying to find a free image of St Mary's, Credenhill.--ColonelHenry (talk) 15:35, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Final conclusioneditAll issues seems to be addressed, the article has been improved a lot and I'm confident it meets all of the GA criteria. Therefore, it is passed as a GA and already listed at the appropriate section. A special thanks to all those who gave a second opinion, which certainly helped. ColonelHenry, thank you. Not only for your major contributions and nomination of this article, for your quick replies and comments, but especially for your willingness to continue with the reviewing process and have a second look at things you initially disagreed with. Although time consuming, this review was certainly satisfying and productive. Thanks again! |
Baccalaureate degree
editI just deleted two references to Traherne's 'Baccalaureate' degree, assuming this was a mistake and that the original author actually meant to write 'bachelor's degree'. But on looking the former word up in the dictionary, I find that the terms are actually synonymous, which I was not aware of before. Anyway, I think it would be better to use 'bachelor's degree', as that term is more widely used in modern English, with 'baccalaureate' being normally being used to refer to something quite different. Celuici (talk) 20:56, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- "Bachelor's" is what modern people--typically Americans lacking erudition or much knowledge on historical usage--insist upon completely ignoring the nuances of the two terms. When Traherne was alive, "baccalaureate" was (and still is) appropriate in this usage and more precise, and in keeping with British English (if you notice the article as a "Use British English" template on it). Reverting. Next time, ask before jumping to erroneous "assumptions".--ColonelHenry (talk) 21:11, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- The small number of quotations in the OED suggest that 'degree of baccalaureate' or simply 'a baccalaureate' would better reflect early modern usage, with the compound forms along the lines of 'baccalaureate X' (sermon, degree) occuring much later. The OED also has 'bachelor(s)' as a much older term, with baccalaureate being a Latinised derivation from it. Issues of questionable historical precision aside, using a Latinate archaicism with multiple contemporary meanings instead of a widely-understood English term is poor usage. Celuici (talk) 01:14, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Hoax editing
editThis article has been heavily edited by User:ColonelHenry. The article was subsequently determined to be a WP:Good article by an editor who ensured that its structure and syntax were adequate but who did not appear to have much knowledge of its subject matter. User:ColonelHenry has recently been community banned from Wikipedia after having been found to have engaged in sock puppetry, vandalism and the creation of hoax and false articles on an industrial scale.[4] [[5]] One administrator described his conduct as "high treason". It is not clear how much of the content ColonelHenry added to this article is false. Rather than check each of his additions by going back to the sources, I have reverted the article to the version of 21 Oct 2012 before he started to edit. Some good edits may have been lost but that is better than having a suspicion of fraud. Comments are welcome. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:32, 30 April 2014 (UTC).
- There's a cleanup in process, please wait. I looked at several articles and found no problem. If you have particular points that appear dubious please question those here. I will revert to the version that was reviewed as a Good Article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:46, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- Readers are warned that the version reverted to above may contain corrupt material. Xxanthippe (talk) 00:28, 20 May 2014 (UTC).
- Absent specific concerns, the fact that an article was edited by a now-banned editor does not automatically mean the article has problems. I think it is critical for people to simply review the article and the source material and then specifically flag or fix any problems found. Slapping on a random "unbalanced" tag makes even less sense if the actual concern is inaccuracy. Montanabw(talk) 23:06, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
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Traherne's political affiliation between 1649 and 1660
editI have deleted one sentence on the grounds that, as written, it is contradictory. If Dobell, who I've not read, thought the father of Thomas was John, why did he think the father was also Philip (no need for silly doubling of final consonant)? Why should the political views of the father, whoever he was, be reproduced in the son? Thomas, it is abundantly clear, could think for himself. Clifford Mill (talk) 12:33, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
- Have now deleted rest of paragraph, which does not stand up to scrutiny and is probably wrong. Clifford Mill (talk) 09:22, 20 February 2018 (UTC)