Talk:Scout leader/Archive 1

merge-agree, maybe Scoutmaster should be more general to encompass all adult leadership, but having two articles is redundant. Chris 19:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

In an edit comment, GageParker stated that Scoutmasters were less likely to be trained than committee members or something to that effect. In my experience in the US (13 years as a Scoutmaster), all Scoutmasters get at least a very basic training (the fast start video and youth protection training), while most committee members get no training at all. Now, I am sure this varies from unit to unit, but most committees I have seen have transitory membership, while there are several Scoutmasters who hold the job for 5 or more years. --Habap 03:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Not sure I stated scoutmasters were less likely to be trained as committee members (maybe "as likely"?). My initial post was reacting to some statements that were incorrect specifically for BSA. First that Scout Leaders can be broken into Uniformed versus Lay. Second that Lay leaders were usually not trained. Third that lay leaders did not interact directly with scouts. I agreee I did not initially appreciate the global nature of the Scout Leader topic. What I see today is much better (a global with sub points for specific countrys). Also appreciate the point that in BSA, Scout Troops, Varsity Teams and Venturing Crews are supposed to be youth lead so scout leaders will include adults and youth.

I am going to put the following into the sandbox.

Amongst the volunteer adults who provide unit level leadership (in the US, collectively called Scouters), there are Scoutmasters (includes assistant scoutmasters) and Committee Members. Both positions require registration. The registration process for an adult leaders includes a personal reference and criminal background check, approval by the Committee Chairmaing and the Chartering Orgranization and acceptance by the District. Both positions are encouraged at specific events to wear their uniforms.

There is a training continuum for both Scoutmasters and Committee Members. The training continuum for both positions includes "Youth Protection", "Fast Start" and "New Leader's Essentials". At this point the two continuums divide. In order to be "Trained" (and entitled to wear the "Trained" patch on their uniform) Committee Members must complete a fourth course "The Troop Committee Challenge." In order for Scoutmasters to wear the "Trained" patch they must complete "Scoutmaster Fundamentals" and "Introduction to Outdoor Leadership." Within 12-18 months of obtaining the status of "Trained", both Committee Members and Scoutmasters are encouraged to complete "21st Century Wood Badge" training.

Scoutmasters are responsible for providing the "Program" or the training of youth leadership in how to plan and run a scout troops's activities. The Members of the Committee are responsible for "Service" or the provisioning the troop with the necessary goods and services that allow the Scoutmasters to focus their efforts solely on delivering the Program.

Committee Members most important direct interaction with scouts is through the Board of Review process. Committee Members assemble in groups of 3 to 6 in order to constitute Boards of Review. After a scout has been reviewed by his scoutmaster for advancement to the ranks of Tenderfoot through Life a scout must meet with a Board of Review. (The Eagle Board of review must also include District Representation and may include citizens in the local community.) An important function of the Board of Review is allow the Committee to collect feedback from the scouts about the success of the Program and deliver that feedback to the Scoutmasters.

The Scoutmaster for a troop is first nominated by the Committee and then appointed by the Chartering Organization before being accepted by the District. The Committee Members elect a Committee Chairman. In the event that the scoutmaster is unavailable, the Committee Chairman steps in until a new scoutmaster is appointed. The Committee also votes on acceptance of the troop schedule and budget as developed each year by the Program.

While it is true that in some troops, the scoutmaster may be the person with the most tenure and committee membership may be transitory and in other cases the opposite may be true, effective troops work to ensure there is balance of experienced adults working together as a team to deliver the both the best possible Service and Program to the troop.

There are similar are similar Service and Program splits for adult leadership in Cub Scouts, Venturing and Varsity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.191.168.72 (talk • contribs)

Now I am noticing the comment that adults are not members of the troop. My BSA Registration card clearly states that I am a member of BSA Troop xxx. Scouters may be registered as member of more than one unit. A good example would be a Webelos Den Leader who has one son in Cub Scouting and then volunteers to help the troop where an older bother may already be enrolled.

I have reverted the contributions of GageParker, without intending to reflect negatively on the editor. The contribution changed the article so that it was specific to the Scoutmaster role in the Boy Scouts of America. The section that was changed is intended to be an overview about Scout leaders internationally. Information that is specific to a country should go under the relevant country section. Zaian 18:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I am restoring two sentences recently deleted that ran as follows: "Scout Leaders receive a formal appointment (sometimes called a warrant). Before appointing an adult leader, Scout associations take great care in screening candidates for their suitability for working with children." The person who deleted them felt that they didn't apply because they were a UK proecedure that does not apply in the US. In fact the term "warrant" is used in very many English-speaking countries, and I feel confident that some form of formal appointment, and some form of child protection screening, are likely to occur in all Scout associations, including the US. If there is still a problem with these sentences, can someone please suggest a way to rephrase this in a suitably international way? Zaian 17:48, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

The level of formality of the screening here in the US is probably far lower. I also suspect that it is far lower when there isn't more than one person who wishes to be the Scoutmaster. Over here, the Troop Committee selects a Scoutmaster, and they fill out an adult leader application. On the application, they list some references who the committee is supposed to contact. After the committee approves the application, the chartering organization signs off on it (perhaps after speaking to the references) and it gets forwarded to the Council. I am uncertain whether Council or the National office runs the background check (I suspect it is just a check against the BSA and police databases due to cost limitations). There is Youth Protection Training, but it has been unclear whether everyone is required to have it or just one leader on a campout or something else entirely. That training is now available online, so is far more accessible.

But, the point is that your paragraph implies rarified, uniform procedure that probably is not practiced so formally even in the UK. That is, it sounds like what the lawyers tell people to say the procedure is. Additionally, we need to at least change the name of the section from "Training" to "Selection and Training". --Habap 18:05, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I renamed the section in my previous submission. Perhaps it should say "most associations perform background checks on candidates to ensure they are suitable for working with children"? I'm not British, but I have spent time in Britain and been through their appointment process as a Scout leader, and they do a very thorough background check. Zaian 18:29, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I like the revisions. Good to go. I wonder if the background check for you was more thorough because you aren't British? Or because you weren't from the same city/town as the unit? One of my ASMs is from Bangalore, India and since no one knew him in advance, I think the Troop Committee was more diligent in actually contacting his references. Since I don't have children of my own, I imagine they would also have checked more thoroughly when I started the Troop. --Habap 18:41, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Done. (I don't think I was treated differently - as far as I can tell, the UK Scout Association just does thorough background checks.) Zaian 21:40, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

There is now far too much US BSA detail here for an international overview article, and not enough about other countries. --Bduke 09:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I propose moving this article from Scout Leader to Scout leader. --Jagz 03:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand please explain. There is no destination called "Scout leader". Please elaborate.GageParker 03:42, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Move means change the name of the article. Wikipedia policy says that only the first letter of article names should be capitalized unless using proper nouns. --Jagz 03:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

In some countries, I think that "Scout Leader" is considered a proper noun, but I'm not sure. For example, I think it a title in the UK, certainly specifically such as "Scout Leader" and "Assistant Scout Leader" but collectively for these and "Cub Scout Leader" etc. --Bduke 04:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

It isn't in the USA. That's one reason why the article name should be changed to Scout leader but in the body of the article it could be Scout Leader or Scout leader depending on which country is being referred to. Scout leader would be the default name. --Jagz 04:22, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

the scouter is an intrument used extensively in Dragon Ball Z,and hence should not directly redirect here. --Sylvestersteele (talk) 17:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Done. Scouter is now a disambiguation page. --Bduke (talk) 23:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge Cubmaster; stub article that does not show notability. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

• support merge Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 16:52, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
• support merge. --Bduke (Discussion) 21:17, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I have made Cubmaster a redirect to here, but there was nothing there that is not already covered in the article so nothing was merged. --Bduke (Discussion) 07:30, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Merge Scout quartermaster to this article; not notable on its own. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:55, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

• Support merge. This is just the sort of example we were talking about on the Project talk page. It is not notable on its own, it has few people watching it and it will be difficult to maintain. --Bduke (Discussion) 09:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
• question-but is here the proper place to merge it? QM is a youth role, not an adult one. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 00:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The article rightly points out that it can be a leader/adult role or a youth role. Perhaps bits should be merged into the a youth article and the main bulk into Scout Leader. In most countries it is an adult role, I think. --Bduke (Discussion) 00:25, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

• Sea Scouting Quartermaster is covered in Sea Scouting (Boy Scouts of America)
• Quartermaster in the BSA is covered in Boy Scouting (Boy Scouts of America)
• That just leaves the section that the quartermaster handles the unit gear— this is in the BSA section. Is this term used by NSOs other than the BSA? --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 10:14, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• The term is used in the UK and there are mentions of it under the UK sections of Scout Leader. I have just added another. It is also well covered at Quartermaster and I now think that Scout quartermaster should redirect there. I'll leave it a while to see whether others agree with me. Should we alter the merge tags to reflect this new proposal? There is nothing in the article that is not already said elsewhere. --Bduke (Discussion) 07:46, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
• If it is merged, there will need to be considerable expansion in this article of the roles and duties of the various youth leadership positions in a troop. Nutiketaiel (talk) 17:09, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Which youth in which troop? This is a universal article on adult Scout Leaders in a worldwide milieu. Youth leadership in a BSA troop is summarized in Boy Scouting (Boy Scouts of America). --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 17:19, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

• Scout quartermaster should not be merged as this emplies the role is only done by a Warrented Leader. The role can be done by any person. --WoodyWerm (talk) 18:29, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Where are we going with this? --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I have been bold and redirected it to Quartermaster, which already contained much of the material under a "Scouting" section. It is now up to others to possibly expand that section and/or add to various other articles about both leaders and members. --Bduke (Discussion) 04:46, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

The BSA style guide Language of Scouting has guidelines on capitalization; see the section under 'C'. Specifically, senior patrol leader is lower case unless referring to a specific person; see 'S'. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 12:34, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

That seems very odd to me considering that it goes against English language conventions, but if BSA wish to create new language conventions for themselves I guess that you are correct that this should be applied to information specific to the BSA. I must point out, though, that this will have the effect that many readers will see the lack of capitalisation as being due to poor literacy skills rather than BSA policy (see Proper noun#Specific designators and Capitonyms). DiverScout (talk) 09:03, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

For the most part they follow conventional style guides. For example, Chief Scout Executive is capitalized, as it refers to a specific position, but senior patrol leader is not, as there are thousands in this position. The peculiarities come in when terms like Scout are always capitalized; then we have Scout executive, national Scout jamboree and junior assistant Scoutmaster. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 14:24, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

There's been some discussion about whether to name this page Scouter or Scoutmaster or Scout Leader or Leader (Scouting), but it seems to have dried up without much consensus. I'm not surprised, because I'm sure most people would agree that it is a fairly dull debate. I've taken the following actions:

• I moved Leader (Scouting) to Scout Leader, as it seems more intuitive and attractive as a title. No-one is a Leader-brackets-Scouting; they are a Scout leader, or a Scout Leader with a capital L in some countries.
• I edited the Scoutmaster page to remove a lot of text along the lines of "in country X, we used to call them Scoutmasters, but now we call them Y". That text now appears in slightly modified form on the Scout Leader page.

This also has the following advantages:

• Scout Leader is now a generic title that we can link to from the main Scouting page
• Scoutmaster can remain in [[Category:Boy Scouts of America]] whereas a merged Scoutmaster / Scout Leader page could not.

-- Zaian 18:33, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

agree that Scout Leader can include youth. In US, youth are called Scouts, adult leaders (both professional and volunteer) are called Scouters 134.163.253.128 Gageparker 6/12/2006

Personally, I never use the term "Scout Leader" when talking about young men in those positions. I use the term "Junior Leader", as in "Junior Leadership Training" as whenever anyone around here uses the former term, they mean adult leaders. We may be nuts, of course. --Habap 19:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Junior leadership training changed to Youth Leadership Training last year. It is training to "Grey Wolf" training this year. GageParkerGageparker

In accordance with these changes I have removed the links in the article to Scoutmaster and Cubmaster as they simply redirected back to the same page. LameCat (talk) 10:49, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

I think I've referenced everything except Australia and USA (as I don't have any access to materials from there). Hopefully the tag can be knocked off soon! DiverScout (talk) 10:23, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I noticed the tag but was too busy to fix it. You have done a great job. I'll try to do Oz next week. --Bduke (Discussion) 10:41, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I have fixed the date errors in the references where someone had used "year= rev.2008" as "year=" only needs to be the year of version you are citing and it doesn't like the extra text. Also I think perhaps we need to reference the section on Roles. LameCat (talk) 11:15, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

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