Talk:Swing time

In bass guitar, I learn in conservatory that :

• Swing is the maintenance of the rythmic tension and their resolutions (makes head bob). In 4/4, swing important clicks are the 4->1 transitions.
• Groove is the maintenance of the dance (makes arses move). In 4/4 groove important clicks are 2 & 4.

Therefor, saying those terms are equivalent makes me think this is oversimplified.

I personnaly interpret Shuffle as maintenance of the link between those two intentions.

Is what the article says really what music academics says ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB04:1F3:8E00:91EC:A2B:67D3:16C3 (talk) 10:21, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

Reference #5 is a dead link. We need another reference, or to delete that sentence, which doesn't really seem to fit in that paragraph.—Preceding unsigned comment added by FelisSchrödingeris (talk • contribs)

Reference numbers can change, but I assume you are referring to the typepad one, which I have deleted. Dead links can be removed on sight.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)Reply

Congratulations to those involved in improvements to this area since I was last here! I took a Wikibreak from this particular article cluster, having failed to resolve a couple of key issues. In my absence the key points seem to have been resolved. Good stuff.

There's still a lot to do. What brought me back though is a minor point: Rosanna shuffle currently redirects here, following a merge of the material previously there to this article. Swung note was also somehow involved, I haven't dredged the history to see how.

Is this really within the scope of this particular article? See Talk:Swung note#Merge: Rosanna shuffle for some other thoughts. Andrewa (talk) 02:10, 9 July 2011 (UTC)Reply

Is this particular section really relevant? It's seems a tad specific for an article on a very broad spectrum of music. 86.190.124.179 (talk) 19:41, 17 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

I think it would be more relevant in Rosanna (song) than here. I think it should also discuss Porcaro's earlier work with Boz Scaggs, which often included similar shuffles ("Lido Shuffle", "Jojo", etc.) FiredanceThroughTheNight (talk) 04:39, 1 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

I agree. Perhaps the Rosanna Shuffle could be included (along with the Zeppelin song and others) in a list of examples of popular rock songs that use swing or something. But it certainly does not merit its own detailed section in an article about swing. I'm removing the section.23.242.207.48 (talk) 23:56, 3 March 2017 (UTC)Reply

This article perpetuates the myth that "swing" is the same as 12/8. This is a gross oversimplification, and in many cases, it's simply false. This is a concept that leads to stilted and constrained music that utterly fails to swing. Swing feel cannot be reduced to a single mathematical ratio, as the ratio varies greatly according to style, and it varies especially with tempo. Although some aspects of swing may yield to mathematical analysis, the oversimplification presented in this article is just to simplified to have any real validity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.68.134.1 (talk) 21:09, 27 February 2015 (UTC)Reply

Agreed. I've removed the statement.23.242.207.48 (talk) 23:54, 3 March 2017 (UTC)Reply

Is this section a joke? "During the 1990s, the social aspect of having individuality and identity was growing significantly in the United States." - really? This is one of the most absurd things I've read on Wikipedia. It reads like it was written by a 12 year old. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1003:B45B:F940:4D9:811B:24C1:36D0 (talk) 02:54, 2 October 2016 (UTC)Reply

Agreed. I removed the section. Even if the info were accurate, it would be about a cultural movement having nothing to do with swing as rhythmic technique or feel in music. 23.242.207.48 (talk) 01:05, 8 March 2017 (UTC)Reply

I strongly disagree with the said sentence defining shuffle rhythm: "The first note of each of these pairs is often understood to be twice as long as the second, implying a quarter note-eighth note triplet feel, but in practice the difference is rarely that pronounced." What? Actually, the difference is really often that pronounced! As I'm educated musician in jazz, I have to say, in really many cases it can be perfectly heard as rhythm ratio 2:1 of eighth notes (=triplets). And many well educated musicians would say, that shuffle rhythm is made by perfect triplets.

Therefore, I also disagree with the used symbol of approximation (≈) for ratio 3:2 named as "shuffle" or "swing". At first, it's necessary to name it "LIGHT swing", "LIGHT shuffle" because the "medium swing" (=ratio 2:1, triplets) is actually the perfect shuffle rhythm so the ratio 2:1 is a way more appropiate to name it as "(medium) shuffle", "(medium) swing" with the word "medium" in the brackets or simply not used. And- at second, that approximation symbol (≈) should be moved to ratio 2:1 or deleted, because we really can't say, that the 3:2 ratio approximation for swing rhythm is the best of theese given in the section "Types".

--Elda Trnimir 20:59, 19 October 2016 (CET) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elda Trnimir (talk • contribs)

Good point. I've added the "approximately equal" symbol to all the given ratios. 23.242.207.48 (talk) 07:51, 20 March 2017 (UTC)Reply

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There seems to be a conflict between the lede and the bulk of the article in that the lede refers to swing in an amorphous, colloquial sense of "this music really swings," whereas much of the article is about swing as a very specific rhythmic technique (i.e., alternation between lengthened and shortened pulse-divisions). The lede is also overly long (for a lede). I suggest that the lede be shortened overall and also modified so that both senses of the word "swing" are addressed. 23.242.207.48 (talk) 01:10, 8 March 2017 (UTC)Reply

Update: I've done some revisions and reorganization that, in my opinion, make the article clearer, less bloated, and less redundant. 23.242.207.48 (talk) 03:21, 8 March 2017 (UTC)Reply

Many forms of “shuffle” redirect here. Yet in the article there's no actual mention of it being synonymous or anything.

FWIW, I've already heard them stated as synonyms, and I've also already heard them distinguished by some form of “swing describes how long eighth notes last; shuffle describes a drumming pattern commonly played swing”.

I'm don't feel knowledgeable enough to include either; there's probably dissenting usages floating too. But as long as the redirects are there, some first-class mention of shuffle is needed in the header.

Jean-Baptiste Mazon (talk) 10:14, 20 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

In the section "Various rhythmic swing approximations:" the 1:1 and 3:2 .mid files are identical. The 1:1 file is not the correct file for 1:1. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tfeledy (talk • contribs) 07:47, 26 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Microtiming Deviations and Swing Feel in Jazz Mapsax (talk) 02:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

This article kind of feels like a mess - it contains bits about a type of jazz, a "feel" of music, and a rhythmic technique all under the same title, which just doesn't make sense. I think we should split it into two articles, one about swing as a subgenre of jazz and another about swing rhythm. (NOTE: This is NOT a formal proposal, but if enough people agree we can make a formal one. Think of this topic as a place to consider and fine-tune the idea.) TypoEater (talk) 16:12, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

I just noticed that there's already an article about swing music, so I think we should instead move the article to something like "swing rhythm" and modify the article to only be about that topic. I still think this article is trying to be about too many things at once. TypoEater (talk) 16:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

I agree that the article is a mess. I have long advocated for an independent article on “swing feel” (without colloquial use conflations), which is a well-understood time feel in jazz music (as contrasted with “straight eighth”). 67.185.21.25 (talk) 20:02, 3 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Much of the content here belongs in an article that should properly be called “Swing (time feel)”. In this case there could be a separate article called “Straight-eighth (time feel)”. If the discussion of those doesn’t warrant two articles, then the contrast (i.e. both) could be discussed in “Feel (music)” or “Time feel (music)”, etc. 67.185.21.25 (talk) 20:11, 3 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Colloquially, it is used to describe the propulsive quality or "feel" of a rhythm, especially when the music prompts a visceral response such as foot-tapping or head-nodding (see pulse). This sense can also be called "groove".

This is absolutely not what "swing" means, which is why there's entirely different terminology for it. "Swing" is what you do AGAINST "the propulsive quality or "feel" of a rhythm". ColonelBustard (talk) 07:07, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply