Talk:Royal Arch Masonry

In NY, we add the qualifier "Virtual" to distinguish between those who have taken the York Rite degree from those who have actually been installed as a Worshipful Master of a lodge. Should this be mentioned and explained? Blueboar (talk) 15:43, 18 February 2009 (UTC)Reply

It's jurisdictional discretion, AFAIK, so put it in those terms. MSJapan (talk) 23:33, 18 February 2009 (UTC)Reply

The current text states:

• The first mention of the Mark Master Mason Degree is in April 30, 1793 Minutes of St. Andrew's Royal Arch Chapter, and the first mention of the degree being given was on July 20, 1793

This is clearly inaccurate... the Mark Master degree was held in numerous Mark Lodges prior to that date (some tied to a specific blue lodge... others independant entities of there own)... for example, The Holland Lodge No. 8 in NY is in posession of a minutes book/mark register for "Holland Mark Lodge", that dates to 1788... and it is clear from reading that minutes book that the brothers who founded Holland Mark Lodge had taken the degree in various other Mark Lodges prior to that date.

Perhaps what is meant is that St. Andrew's Chapter is the first mention of the Degree being given by a Royal Arch Chapter... as opposed to being given by some other body. If so, this needs to be clarified. Blueboar (talk) 20:25, 18 February 2009 (UTC)Reply

That's direct from Denslow, IIRC, and I would have to see exactly when St. Andrew's went from Royall Arch Lodge moniker to its Chapter one to see what is being meant. MSJapan (talk) 23:32, 18 February 2009 (UTC)Reply

Trying to read between the lines, I see several possibilities for what Denslow is trying to say... 1) he could mean that 1793 was the first conferal of the degree by St. Andrew's Chapter, 2) he could mean that it was the first conferal in a Chapter setting, or 3) he could mean that he thinks it was the first conferal of the degree anywhere. If he means the last of these possibilities, then he obviously was in error (presumably he was simply unaware of other, older, conferals)... We do need to double check this. The way the article was written, it makes it seem as if the first ever Mark Master degree was done by St. Andrew's in 1793... and clearly that is wrong.

I have removed the sentence in question, pending further enquirey. Blueboar (talk) 14:56, 19 February 2009 (UTC)Reply

When we say "mostly conferred in the United States" are we saying that there are more York Rite Masons in the United States or that more countries confer the Holy Royal Arch as opposed to Royal Arch Masonry is it is practiced within the York Rite. Because from my understanding far more countries organize their degrees within the York Rite than treat them as entirely separate bodies. PeRshGo (talk) 12:16, 25 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

I suspect what was originally intended is a bit of both. Blueboar (talk) 11:11, 3 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Well then I think that may be an inaccuracy. Appendant bodies in general are going to be a bit harder to get numbers on but if we are looking at it from the perspective of the number of countries I think it is pretty safe to say that organizing the Royal Arch into the York Rite is more prevalent. As for the number of individual chapters or members I can't say for sure. Now the pervasiveness my be in relation to American influence or more specifically military presence, but just the same I think "mostly conferred in the United States" isn't the right term to use as there are a number of other countries that confer it as well. PeRshGo (talk) 15:14, 3 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

A recent edit mentioned Canada and pointed to the article on the Holy Royal Arch degree. According to this website, however, Canadian practice seems to be the same as that in the US. So I am not sure that the distinction is needed or appropriate Blueboar (talk) 18:09, 14 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Their ritual and degree system is in line with the General Grand Chapter but they use UK regalia and officer titles. The GGC doesn't require the Past Master degree so they're right in saying it isn't done there. They are also more likely to call the degree "Holy Royal Arch." But the problems that I’ve noticed with both Royal Arch articles is that they don’t really account for the wild variances in the systems. From my travels what I’ve found is that there are jurisdictions that do it the GGC way, and every other country is pretty much completely different. Even India now has significant differences between their ritual and that of England. I've been trying to think of ways to make it more clear but things get easily convoluted. PeRshGo (talk) 09:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

We may want to just make this article about the rules of the General Grand Chapter, and Holy Royal Arch about the degree in other systems. PeRshGo (talk) 09:06, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

I think that was the original intent behind having two separate articles... Suggest you work with ALR, as he will know the UK side of things.

I don't mind including a discussion of differences (in whichever article is appropriate) ... but any such discussion would need to be supported by citation to a reliable source. This is always a frustrating problem when it comes to writing Freemasonry related articles... there is so much that simply is not written down anywhere! We all want to improve these articles by adding things we know to be true from our own personal experience... but doing so violates Wikipedia's WP:Verifiability and WP:No original research policies, so we can't. Blueboar (talk) 14:13, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

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Per that IP edit and reversion, it might be just a matter of semantics, but it depends on how one perceives the degrees - there are Lodges that confer the first three degrees according to a "system" (Scottish or York) insofar as they're stylistically different. So neither statement is necessarily incorrect, but I don't know that I've ever seen a source that elaborates on the differences, as most scholars draw on their own jurisdiction's system of three degrees as the "basis" for whatever they're saying. Now, all that being said, we are looking at this from a US perspective - nobody else calls the system "York Rite", but instead they call it "American Rite", and the Holy Royal Arch as practiced in UGLE and the Commonwealth countries is different than the American Royal Arch, such as the separate Order of Mark Master Masons, of which there are only a few examples in the US. The US, meanwhile, does confer the first three degrees in the York style, except in isolated cases (I think it's isolated) in Louisiana. So maybe we need to adjust the lede a bit to avoid this sort of good faith change in the future? MSJapan (talk) 07:07, 16 May 2016 (UTC)Reply

Thinking on it a bit, it may very well be more correct to say second, or at the very least drop first or second entirely to avoid the argument. If you are following the Webb ritual, or perhaps more accurately, any jurisdiction that offers the York Rite, Blue Lodge is claimed to be a part of the York Rite system. Even the oft used yet unofficial York Rite emblem includes that S&C to represent Blue Lodge. Scottish Rite has its own version of the craft lodge degrees but is unable to confer them, so it uses your jurisdiction's degrees in their place, but the York Rite has no separate set of blue lodge degrees as it considers the blue lodge degrees a part of its system. PeRshGo (talk) 16:39, 16 May 2016 (UTC)Reply