Talk:Penalty (gridiron football)
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Globalization and rename
editThis article was recently moved from Penalty (American football) to Penalty (gridiron football) in the name of globalizing it. However, but for one mention of Canada in the intro, the text deals exclusively with American football codes. Should this article be returned to its original title, or should the text be globalized? If the latter, the first thing that comes to mind for inclusion is the 25-yard penalty (plus disqualification) for rough play in the CFL. —C.Fred (talk) 04:27, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I think that would be a good idea. Some other things come to mind: Canadian football is 12 a side, so the references to 12 players resulting in penalties would have to be either qualified or perhaps changed to just a reference to "too many players". Also, Canadian football allows a wider range of motion prior to the snap by the offense. Come to think about it, we should also include rules pertinent to indoor/arena football. Wschart (talk) 23:48, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
Half the Distance
editOn the paragraph that states:
- Most penalties result in replaying the down and moving the ball toward the offending team's end zone. The distance is usually either 5, 10, or 15 yards depending on the penalty. However, such penalties, when enforced, are always capped at half the distance to the offending team's goal line.
Remember when you say always, there is always going to be an exception. In this case, in the NCAA, when there is a pass interference penalty at least 15 yards from the line of scrimmage, the penalty is 15 yards from the line of scrimmage, no matter where the original line of scrimmage was. It is capped at the 2 yard line, not half the distance to the goal. PI in the endzone, where the original line of scrimmage was the 20, would result in the ball being placed at the 5. If the line of scrimmage was at the 16, it would be placed at the 2.
What would be best here? Just say that penalties are generally capped at half the distance maybe? Would a discussion of this specific exception be worth it here? Or perhaps just right after the noted paragraph, state something like The only exception to this is... and then explain the rule. Of course, it gets more complicated in that if the foul is less than 15 yards from the line of scrimmage, the penalty puts the ball at the spot of the foul. I'm not sure what the call is if the PI is behind the line of scrimmage. 67.161.251.32 (talk) 01:00, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Illegal formation
edit"Fewer than 7 players line up on the line of scrimmage(NFL/High School); more than four players in the backfield (NCAA only)" Maybe that's how there worded in the books for each respective code, but given there are 11 men total, either describes exactly the same situation.Wschart (talk) 00:52, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
- Not true. It is a foul in high school to line up with six players on the line of scrimmage and four in the backfield (and only ten on the field); I'd have to look at the wording of the NCAA rule to see how that's handled. —C.Fred (talk) 04:21, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Face mask rule change (NCAA)
editIn 2009, the NCAA changed the rules for facemask penalties: there is NO accidental face mask. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.52.0.56 (talk) 03:41, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- Correct, and the article reflects that. —C.Fred (talk) 04:19, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Illustrations
editI find it interesting that no one has created illustrations of each penalty though art or photography. I cannot draw and I don't want my photo on WP, so my taking on the project is unlikely, but somehow I thought with all of the artists on this site this would have been a given. — CobraWiki ( jabber | stuff ) 18:38, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
Scope check and table formatting
editGiven that the article now covers all gridiron football, not just varieties played in the US, there need to be some additional columns added:
- A column for CFL penalty yardage
- A column for Football Canada (amateur) penalty yardage
- A second signal column, for where the signal is different (e.g., intentional grounding and chop block)
Further, how do we handle substantially similar penalties with different names, like delay of game v. time count or illegal forward pass v. offside pass? Just list the alternate name in the table?
Here's a worst-case scenario:
| Penalty | Description | United States | Canada | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Signal | Yardage | Signal | Yardage | |||||
| NFL | NCAA | HS | CFL | Football Canada | ||||
| Delay of game (US, Canada) Time count foul (Canada) |
Any action which delays the next play. On offense, this means failing to snap the ball before the play clock reaches zero, which is referred to as a time count foul in Canada. It may also include spiking the ball.
On defense, it occurs when a player hinders the offense in hurrying to make the next snap. This happens most often in the last two minutes of a half when the offense is trying to go down the field in a hurry. The defense can also be flagged for a delay of game if a player spikes the ball after the end of a play. On special teams, it happens when the return team runs after signaling for a fair catch, or the defense does not unpile in a timely manner after the play ends. |
Upper arms extended out from the body, forearms bent toward the opposite arm, such that the arms lie on top of one another or that each arm touches the opposite shoulder. | 5 yards | 5 yards | 5 yards | Delay of game: arms extended along the side of the body, elbows projecting outward slightly, hands at waist level behind the back Time count foul: one arm extended outward from the body, rotated such that the hand travels a circle about a foot in diameter |
Delay of game: 10 yards Time count foul: 5 yards, except in the last three minutes of the half, when it is loss of down on first or second down and 10 yards on third down |
Delay of game: 10 yards Time count foul: 5 yards, except in the last three minutes of the half, when it is loss of down on first or second down and 10 yards on third down |
Messy, isn't it? —C.Fred (talk) 22:51, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
What would have happened with the 10-second runoff in effect?
editThis is in reference to 2010 Music City Bowl. I made an inquiry on its talk page. It says in that Wikipedia article that the new rule would have led to Tennessee winning 20-17, but back HERE (Wikipedia page on Penalty (gridiron football)) it says that the new rule would not have saved Tennessee. Something isn't right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.20 (talk) 18:07, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Clothesline
editNot really familiar with the game, despite being a US citizen, so when I ran across the term "clothesline" as a football term, I decided to look it up.
Clothesline_(disambiguation) defines it as "Clothesline, an illegal play in American football in which a player strikes an opponent across the face or neck with an extended arm," with a link leading to this article. However, this article makes no mention of the foul in question that I can find. Can someone add information?
*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 18:19, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- It's not really a foul unto itself. It's a form of illegal contact that would be penalized as a personal foul. —C.Fred (talk) 00:24, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'll rewrite the dab entry.
- *Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 16:17, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
Move discussion in progress
editThere is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Reception (American football) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 07:59, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
About the Delay of Game penalty ... and more
editI originally came here to see if I could find out what would happen if a team suffered a second delay of game penalty. In all of my years of watching football, I have never, ever, seen a team have this happen. Is that because the penalty for the second time is unusually draconian?? After all, a team with the lead at the end of a game could conceivably do nothing, and just let the clock run out as they kept backing up five yards at a time by suffering a delay of game penalty time after time. If there is no actual more substantial penalty for a second consecutive delay of game, would the team be given another type of penalty? Seriously, I have wondered this for years and no one I've ever asked knows the answer. If anyone knows the answer to this pleas answer here and update the article. (Surely I'm not the only one who has wondered about this.)
Also, this article could use a cleanup. Some parts need some additional additions as well, far too many to list here. For example, in the "Pass interference," part, shouldn't there be also added something saying that the pass must have been catchable? In "Spearing," there is this: "(This technique is illegal because of the risk of neck injuries to the tackler.)" While that is certainly true, the rule is also meant to protect the tackled player as well. There are a lot more of these that need tweaking, so if anybody cares, let me know.
On something I doubt anyone will care about I would delete (I started to but I didn't want to upset anyone), to entries in The ten-second runoff rule section. I would remove the "A pre-season game in 2006 between Houston and Kansas City..." as it's pre-season, and nobody really cares about pre-season events. I'd also delete "2012 New England-Arizona..." as that concerned the end of the first half, and that would have had NO EFFECT on the outcome of the game, so it seems pointless to include it. __209.179.0.121 (talk) 21:19, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- In many codes, the clock will start on the snap after a delay of game penalty. Even if the rules say to start the clock on the ready, the referee may order the clock to start on the snap if he feels the team is intentionally trying to consume time.
- As for a draconian penalty, that'd be the CFL's penalty for time count during the last three minutes of the half. (Delay of game in the CFL is a separate foul and always carries a ten-yard penalty; time count [foul] is the foul in question here.)The rest of each half, a time count foul carries a five-yard penalty. After the three minute warning, a time count foul on first or second down results in loss of the down. On third down, it's a ten-yard penalty, but if the referee feels the team was trying to intentionally consume time, it's a loss of down penalty—which would turn the ball over to the defence.
- Regarding New England-Arizona and the runoff at the end of the first half: if it prevented a play from being run, that could've been a scoring play, then it did affect the outcome of the game. —C.Fred (talk) 22:17, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
"Equipment violations" listed at Redirects for discussion
edit
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Equipment violations. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 October 6#Equipment violations until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hog Farm Bacon 00:14, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
Penalty (gridiron football)
editOffsides Only Goes Against The Defense,If A Player On Offense Is Past The Line Of Scrimmage Before The Ball Is Snapped,Then He Gets Whistled For A False Start.
Delay Of Game Only Happens If The Playclock Expires Before The Ball Is Even Snapped. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackjohnson52183 (talk • contribs) 15:08, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
- Not true on delay of game. If a player for the defense picks up a ball that they think was fumbled and unnecessarily carries it, it can still be delay of game. If the defense's coach requests a conference with the referee, does not have a timeout, and no change in the ruling is made, it is delay of game. If a defensive player is not properly wearing required equipment, it is delay of game. If the defense does not unpile timely, it is delay of game. (NFHS rulebook, rule 3-6-2) —C.Fred (talk) 16:30, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
- As for offsides, it is not a false start for a player on offense to be beyond the line of scrimmage in NCAA; it is encroachment. (7-1-3-c). —C.Fred (talk) 16:34, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
- It is also offsides for a member of the kicking team to be in front of the ball at the time of the kick. —C.Fred (talk) 16:41, 10 January 2021 (UTC)