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Talk:Pal Engjëlli

Latest comment: 12 years ago by Cuchullain in topic Requested move
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Kaplan Resuli-Burović claims that Pal Engjëlli was a Montenegrin called Pavle Angelić. Andres 06:54, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

How is Engjëlli pronounced? Where lies the accent?

The accent is on the first letter, E. --Dori 14:09, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

In my history book it says that Pal Engjëlli was from Drishti[1]. At the time the government was composed of several councils: Head of State (Kryetari i Shtetit), Counsel of Nobels (Kuvendi i Fisnikëve), High Counsel (Këshilli i Lartë), of which Pal was a member, and Cousel of War (Këshilli i Luftës).

After Skanderbeg's death, the state of Venice send Pal Engjëlli in Albania to talk to the wife and to the child of Scanderbeg and convince them to hand over Kruja and other lands they possessed. This led to some rifts with other nobels that were not under the influence of Venice such as Lekë Dukagjini who actually tried to enter into talks with the Turks. Venice tried to keep Dukagjini from taking his possessions in Shkodër, which angered him to the point of armed conflict with Venice.

Note that there was also a certain Pal Pjetër Engjëlli (in early 1500), nephew of Dhimitër Frëngu.

Regarding, early Albanian writings, beside the prayer, there was Small dictionary (Fjalorthi) by Arnold von Harf (German traveling through Albania, wrote 21 words in Albanian, 8 sentences, and numbers 1-10, 100, 1000 and their translation into German). The third, was Perikopeja e ungjillit te pashkeve found in the Abrosia Library of Milan inside some Greek writings; it was in the Greek alphabet and the Tosk dialect, believed to be around the end of 15th, early 16th century.

--Dori 14:19, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The correct spelling is Arnold von Harff.

tried to keep Dukagjini from taking his possessions in Shkodër: I am not sure I got it. Were Venetians sitting in Shkodër and not letting him in? Andres 14:34, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I don't know. That's all the book says. It seems the Venetians were in possession of several lands at this point (although probably more south than Shkodër), maybe they did just that. --Dori 14:48, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Requested move

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Latest comment: 12 years ago45 comments12 people in discussion
The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No consensus to move. Cúchullain t/c 14:10, 30 May 2012 (UTC)Reply

Pal Engjëlli → Paulus Angelus –

Although certain small number of Paulus Angelus GBS hits refer to another Paulus Angelus it is obvious that this version of name is used by most scholars who deal with this subject like Robert Elsie [2], Kenneth Meyer Setton [3], Nelo Drizari ([4], .. even Fan Noli uses similar version (Paul Angelo). Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:04, 17 May 2012 (UTC)Reply

  • Unsure [strikethrough: the search in the nomination is inaccurate, see below] despite my user name being in Latin, I'm not convinced that a Latin name is right for a medieval figure in a modern encyclopedia. Was he actually an Italian, Paolo Angeli, or was he naturally an Albanian Pal Engjëlli? I think we should also be sensitive to, where evidence is balanced, considering national significance. Evidently Pal Engjëlli is more significant to Albania, than Paolo Angeli (who?) is to Italians (not that it's as clear as the current proposal to return Talk:Ana Ivanović to full Serbian spelling). Latin, are there many 15th C bios under Latin names on en.wp? In ictu oculi (talk) 10:17, 17 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
My proposal is based on:
  1. WP:NC policy i.e. "what reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject by",
  2. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) guideline: "The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title".
  3. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) : "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources"
  4. Existing practice of above mentioned scholars
This is not an ethnicity issue. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:37, 17 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
Your conclusion is based on incorrect search results (5,5 : 1) because you:
  1. added additional search criteria (-pal -engjelli) only for Paulus (?)
  2. forgot to deghost search results.
--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:36, 17 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
The need to add (-pal engjelli) for the Latin is that the Latin was occuring in brackets after the Albanian, which wasn't happening in reverse. There should be no need to deghost Google Scholar, it's supposed to do it automatically, or used to. Anyway, looking again at the results manually one-by-one only confirms them; where the Latin occurs it is usually in brackets after the Albanian. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:40, 17 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
Common English use actually supports the renaming.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:11, 17 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
Common English use has the Latin in brackets after the Albanian. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:58, 17 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
Incorrect. Take a better look at the sources i.e. look at the links provided at the top of this section which show that scholars who wrote their works on English and who are dealing with this subject used Paulus version of his name without any brackets and without using Albanian version, although some of them are Albanian.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:45, 17 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
Those sources don't seem typical, this seems more so:

"Apart from a fragmentary document in Albanian, published in 1462 by Pal Engjëlli (Paulus Angelus), archbishop of Durazzo (Durre's), the first book in the Albanian language -- as far as we know -- was published in 1555." Standard Albanian: a reference grammar for students Leonard Newmark, Philip Hubbard, Peter R. Prifti - 1982 p3

Searches don't show much support for Latin-name only, Paulus Angelus in modern sources, I see what I see, which others also will see if they search for "Pal Engjëlli Paulus Angelus" and if they don't fine.In ictu oculi (talk) 23:33, 17 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
Incorrect. Click to wikilinks provided above i.e. Robert Elsie, Kenneth Meyer Setton,Fan Noli...--Antidiskriminator (talk) 05:48, 18 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose as per In ictu oculi's first comment, ie. his significance lies within Albanian as he is the first known to write in Albanian. The clarified search results also lead to this decision.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:22, 17 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • Of course his name at the time was Pal Engjëlli. The P. Angelus is the Latinized version of his name, so we don't have to complicate matters further. A timid Oppose. Majuru (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:23, 17 May 2012 (UTC).Reply
  • Support. I get 52 (20 deghosted) post-1990 English language Google Book results for "Paulus Angelus", 7 for "Pal Engjelli." Perhaps that margin is not decisive, but I assume that the Latin version is closer to usage in the primary source documents. It is inappropriate to hand out modern nationalities to Medieval figures. The subject had a notable position in the Latin-speaking church. Kauffner (talk) 11:26, 18 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
I don't think I've ever said this before in a RM, but I think Kauffner's comment here, as with Good Day's above needs to be disregarded. I can't help but think that this is merely overspill from continuing disruption from WP:TENNISNAMES, wheras what this RM is about, sorry Antidiskriminator, is clearly in part ethnic identity of someone moderately important in the Balkans and particularly important in Albania.
As far as search results go, the results seem to be all over the place - I don't know if it's a bad day for Google Books, but the results I get when clicking on the links bear absolutely no resemblence. Shall we settle this by doing an actual manual inventory? This is the method when Google searches produce conflicting results. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:36, 18 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
I don't see a tennis connection. But this is not the first time these issues have come up. Check out João VI of Portugal → John VI of Portugal. Kauffner (talk) 00:39, 19 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
Unfortunately Kauffner I have to see a WP:TENNISNAMES connection. Any editor who, with respect, but it's the case, votes in every possible RM to remove diacritics (as per de-Serbianizing at "Talk:Ana Ivanovic" sic) on the basis of low-MOS tabloid sources you're potentially approaching this question from a different angle than what is really relevant to an article on Albanian language. The more relevant issue here is whether the first recorded author of sentence in Albanian should have his name recorded in Albanian or Latin. Evidently the modern sources related to the Albanian language, which is where his primary notability lies, generally have his Albanian name either alone, or first with Latin in brackets. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:01, 20 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
I removed the underline from the 1947 text "known to the world as Paulus Angelus" in the manual inventory below and moved the 1947 source back into old I don't know who made that move or underline, but I put "known to the world in 1947" there for curio value, the source inventory should be 1990 onwards. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:08, 20 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
No. The 1947 text is not old or archaic. The only reason why Noli's work is in that section is because it presents another version of name, not because of the year of publishing. I will return it to the appropriate section.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:18, 20 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
Antidiskriminator. I take it you are not an Albanian? My other manual inventory sources below are post 1990, I made an exception for the 1947 source because it has a different spelling. If your case for the move to Latin requires picking up the 1947 source, underlining "...known to the world[in 1947]as Paulus Angelus" and moving it into the modern section it may suggest to some that you want this move too much, no? In ictu oculi (talk) 09:36, 20 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
@In ictu oculi: My ethnicity is not the subject of this discussion. According to WP:NPA you should comment on content, not on the contributor. Derogatory comments about other contributors may be removed by any editor. Repeated or egregious personal attacks may lead to blocks..
We can pull it back to 1980, by all means. I think my question is in line with the tone of the proposal and the editing to be honest. To someone who has no sympathies Serbian/Albanian, you have made a rather one-sided case that when the evidence is manually inventoried below doesn't stand up. I don't see the value of further discussion. And the discussion so far makes it unlikely this move will find consensus. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:37, 21 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
"Antidiskriminator. I take it you are not an Albanian?" "a rather one-sided case"?
I did not see much of honest editing in your case here. Personal attacks and comments about me, moving "pre 1990" sources in inappropriate section to support your case, removing underlined statement of Albanian scholar Nelo Drizari that this person is "known to the world as Paulus Angelus"...
Consensus is based on arguments, not on number of votes. In this case it is obvious that in case of works written by scholars who are authoritative in this subject (there were more results for Paulus but I did not want to present those who are not written by authoritative scholars) Mr. Nelo Drizari was right when he emphasized that this person is "known to the world as Paulus Angelus".--Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:31, 21 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
Antidiskriminator,
Since I supplied the Drizari source I evidently don't have a problem with the fact that you like it. Unfortunately we are no longer in 1947 and Latin names are less used for Albanians in 2012. As for the proposed rename, 4 editors have rejected the proposal on the grounds of sources. I don't have anything further to add. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:59, 21 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
  1. This is not an ethnicity issue.
  2. Please you should comment on content, not on the contributor (with your assumptions what other contributor likes or not)
  3. This is not voting.
  4. The editors who rejected the proposal did it before Manual inventory of English sources since 1990 was created.
  5. Manual list of post-1990 sources confirms what Nelo Drizari emphasized in 1947. This person is "known to the world as Paulus Angelus" because scholars who are authoritative in this subject use Paulus Angelus version of the name in sources on English.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:25, 21 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
This talk page edit is unhelpful, I took the trouble to make that manual inventory, I just took the trouble to put it in date order. You seem so determined to de-Albanianize the first writer of Albanian language you have included a 1955 book in 1990 sources. 1955 isn't after 1990. Anyway, either please restore my initial inventory post 1990, or restore my second inventory by date. This sort of messing around isn't going persuade anyone of that your proposal is supported by modern reliable sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:31, 21 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
This is your third comment about me which is clearly personall attack. Please follow the WP:NPA policy and comment on content, not on the contributor (with your assumptions what other contributor are determined to). Post-1990 sources were proposed by User:Kauffner. I restored sorting by date. This way anybody can choose what is old or new.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:01, 21 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
Antidiskriminator, saying an edit is unhelpful is not "clearly personal attack". Thank you for restoring the date order. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:01, 22 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
Saying You seem so determined to de-Albanianize is.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:09, 22 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
Well, maybe you could use this as a learning experience on the lines of Robert Burns' O would some power the giftie gie us to see ourselves as others see us. If someone I'd only just met from my proposal/editing/talk/search got the impression that I wanted to de-Albanianize the first writer in Albanian I might ask myself why I gave that impression. Anyway. This isn't contributing to the discussion is it, it's pretty obvious from the opposes above and manual inventory below that the Latin name is a hard sell. Category:15th-century Albanian people doesn't give much precedent either. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:22, 22 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
This is your forth comment about me. Please follow WP:NPA and comment on content, not on the contributor.
I will further expand Latin name shortly.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:06, 22 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
With respect this isn't the fourth comment, it's the same being brought up again with you making an issue of it. Okay I apologise I shouldn't have said "Antidiskriminator, I take it you are not an Albanian?" I apologise. Okay. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:00, 23 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
You attributed to me the determination to "de-Albanize", which is not only personal attack but also violation of WP:AGF. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:30, 23 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
Then I apologise for that as well, you have no intention to de-Albanianize the first writer of Albanian language. Mea culpa. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:43, 23 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
Thank you. Renaming the article can hardly de-Albanize this 15th century person. Some of the people who lived in Albania were also ethnic Albanians. Still they did not have Albanian names but most often Serbian. This person had Slavic name Pavle Andjeo → Pavl Angjella → Pal Engjëlli. Changing his name to latin version, the only version which exists in original documents, would probably be more de-Serbisation than de-Albanisation. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:53, 23 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
I think that until now it can be concluded that there are no notable scholars who use Pal Engjelli version. Most of those who use that version are in fact unknown Albanian scholars who wrote some unimportant text on English. All of them together can not match one Robert Elsie or Kenneth Setton and his masterpiece The Papacy and the Levant. Even better known Albanian scholars like Fan Noli, and Nelo Drizari don't use Engjelli version at all, or use it together with Paulus version (Peter R. Prifti). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:53, 23 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • Comment: Please, before hasting to present probable misleading personal conclusions, firstly read the Latin element of the Albanian language. The name "Engjëll" is an early borrowing from Latin (Angelus), much earlier than the earliest south Slavic borrowings into the Albanian language. Both his name and surname are "international" Christian names of Indo-European roots; you, me or anyone else can present any version of it in Serbian, Greek, Swedish, Spanish etc, that's not the case, instead his surname's "inception" is through the Latin language, while the Albanian version of Pal is known to be used at that time (i.e. Pal Dukagjini). I doubt anybody questions the Slavic general cultural influence, as seen in people's personal names you mentioned above, but remember that "our Archbishop" was connected with the Roman Church and the Latin culture/religion, so, even beyond the above linguistic explanation, the assumption of his Serbian name is hardly credible. The Albanian scholar Zenel Sulaj (known as Nelo Drizari) is the only [5] who presents the Archbishop's name in the form "Pavl Angjella" (Angjella is somehow a feminized form of the standard Albanian "Engjëll", or "Angjell" in the Gheg dialect), but presenting its real form as "Pavle Andjeo" is going a bit far, don't you think? Then carefully put the scholars in a "weighing machine", because it's not good pointing fingers, overpraising or underestimating certain authors on personal belief.
You said above that, I cite "I think that until now it can be concluded that there are no notable scholars who use Pal Engjelli version. Most of those who use that version are in fact unknown Albanian scholars who wrote some unimportant text on English.". You're mistaken though, since 8 out 13 sources (I added another one recently) of the "Albanian alone list" are of non-Albanian authorship (included the author of the passage mentioning "Pal Engjëlli" in the book Übersetzung - Translation – Traduction (Handbücher zur Sprach- und Kommunikationswissenschaft, 26,3) as Albanian, too), while there are also notable authors such as H. Hodgkinson, M. Ionescu, J. Byron. And that's just in English. There are several online reliable sources in German mostly (I'm excluding here the Albanian, Italian/Latin and Serbian, which could be taken as presenting "conflict of interest" with the Archbishop's figure) and I'm sorry if I seem to stimulate this apparently childish list-battle below, but since we're not in the "Manual inventory of English sources" I will include some of them below just for credibility-back up:
To sum up my comment, I stress the point that both the Albanian and the Latin names must be presented in the article, but I believe the Albanian one should prevail not only because of the reasons mentioned above. We should take into consideration also that Latin was a lingua franca in this region at this certain time, as it had been Serbian before the Ottomans' campaigns, or the Ancient Greek in antiquity. Several up to date sources use the Albanian form of the name, despite the obvious original Latin usage of the 15th century. Moreover, as for a practical reason as well, there seems to be another notable Italian religious figure, Paulus Angelus, different from the Albanian Archbishop. Empathictrust (talk) 01:27, 24 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
See Paulus Angelus (disambiguation) In ictu oculi (talk) 01:52, 24 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
@Empathictrust. Your long comment did not prove that my "personal conclusions" were "misleading". The only author who used Engjëlli version and is notable enough to have its wikipedia article is Harry Hodgkinson (just click to the link and you will see the level of his credibility for this issue, or any other). Usage of Angelus is much more common in other languages, like German, then Engjëlli. Conclusion: My comment was grounded in arguments, not misleading personal conclusion.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 05:31, 24 May 2012 (UTC)Reply

Manual inventory of English sources by date

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Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

"Pal Engjëlli" (Albanian alone)

  • 2011 - Enkelena Shockett Qafleshi Übersetzung - Translation – Traduction (Handbücher zur Sprach- und Kommunikationswissenschaft, 26,3), Walter de Gruyter (2011) - page 2112, quote: “Another document (now in the Laurentian Library, Florence) is the baptismal formula written by Pal Engjëlli, Archbishop of Durres and Cardinal of Albania, a personal friend of Scanderbeg.”
  • 2011 - Carlos Quiles, Fernando López-Menchero A Grammar of Modern Indo-European 2011 Page 128 "... Atit et birit et spertit senit ̳I baptise thee in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit', recorded by Pal Engjelli, Bishop of Durres in 1462 in the Gheg dialect, and some New Testament verses from that period."
  • 2008 - Proverbium: Volume 25, Ohio State University, University of Vermont, Universiṭah ha-ʻIvrit bi-Yerushalayim - 2008 "The first known record of the Albanian language is the "Formulae of Baptism" of AD 1462, written using the Latin alphabet in the Albanian northern dialect by the Archbishop of Durres, Pal Engjelli.
  • 2005 - Harry Hodgkinson Scanderbeg 2005 (Google Books searches on Engjelli not Angelus, but doesn't show page)
  • 2004 - Mihail E. Ionescu War, military and media from Gutenberg to today, Military Publ. House (2004) quote: “... discovered the first document in Albanian language "The Baptism Formula", written in 1462 by the Scanderbeg's adviser and co-operator, bishop of Durres Pal Engjelli.” – see the seventh of the list, for the quote here: [16]
  • 2003 - Pjetër Pepa The criminal file of Albania's communist dictator Uegen (2008) quote: “For the first time, we encounter the first Albanian sentence - the formula of baptism (1462) from the bishop Pal Engjelli and with the first albanian book of the year 1555” - see here the penultimate of the list for the quote: [17]
  • 2000 - Genc Myftiu Albania, a patrimony of European values: a short encyclopedia of Albanian history and cultural heritage, SEDA (2000) – page 61, quote: “[...] the Archbishop of Durrës, Pal Engjëlli, a close associate of Scanderbeg, [...]”
  • 1999 - Xhevat Lloshi, Handbuch der Südosteuropa-Linguistik, Otto Harrassowitz Verlag (1999) – page 291, quote: “In a manuscript of decrees and orders, compiled in 1462 by Pal Engjëlli, Archibishop of Durrës and... “
  • 1995 - Edwin E. Jacques The Albanians: an ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present 1995 Page 186 "After lengthy negotiations Pal Engjelli, archbishop of Durres, representing the pope and even Venice convinced the reluctant Albanian leaders that both national honor and survival demanded their participation in the crusade."
  • 1986 - Christians Associated for Relationships with Eastern Europe (U.S.) Occasional papers on religion in Eastern Europe, Volumes 6-7, Ecumenical Press, Temple University (1986) quote: “The encounter of Skanderbeg and Pope Paul II is described in pp. 608-614. 9. Pal Engjelli, the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Durres, was one of Skanderbeg' s close associates.” – see the eighth of the list, for the quote here: [18] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Empathictrust (talk • contribs) 00:49, 24 May 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • 1984 - Albania, general information, "8 Nëntori", Tirana, Albania, (1984) "written document of the Albanian we possess is one belonging to the 15th century (1462) — a brief formula of baptizing written in Latin alphabet by the archbishop of Durres, Pal Engjelli, a contemporary of Skanderbeg."
  • 1976 - Janet Byron Selection among alternates in language standardization: the case of Albanian, Mouton (1976) – page 36, quote: “the formula is in Geg, and written in Roman script; it occurs within a pastoral letter, itself in Latin, of the Archibishop of Durrës, Pal Engjëlli.”
  • 1972 - East European quarterly: Volume 6 University of Colorado, Boulder - 1972 "Here, too, he feels he must ignore completely the beginnings of Albanian literature as far back as 1331 and the works of Pal Engjelli (1462), Gjon Buzuku (1555), Lluke (Leke) Matranga (1592), Pjeter (Peter) Budhi (1618), Frang Bardhi ..."

"Pal Engjelli (Paulus Angelus)" Latin in brackets following

"Paulus Angelus" (Latin alone)

Other

  • 1947 - Pavl Angjella... Paulus Angelus : Nelo Drizari Spoken and written Albanian: a practical handbook 1947 -"Pavl Angjella, known to the world as Paulus Angelus, Archbishop of Durazzo, whom Pope Pius II had recommended as Cardinal of Albania,"
  • 1947 - Paul Angelo Noli, Fan Stilian (1947), George Castrioti Scanderbeg (1405–1468), International Universities Press, p. 83, OCLC 732882, Archbishop of Durazzo, Paul Angelo,
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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