Talk:Lockheed YF-22

There are some good PD iamges at Defense Imagery.mil, including a couple of in-flight shots. - BilCat (talk) 08:49, 9 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Talk:Lockheed YF-22/GA1

The Mach 1.58 supercruise speed is given by multiple sources, including Aronstein's book. Also, I don't see why we need to round to one decimal place. The F-22's supercruise speed is also given in two decimal places. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.228.145.163 (talk) 08:20, 20 August 2014 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for adding a source. Now wasn't that easy? - BilCat (talk) 08:50, 20 August 2014 (UTC)Reply

The "YF" designation should be explained. The 'F' is obvious (Fighter), but the 'Y' is not. I asked an AF Col. what the 'Y' meant, and he said that it simply means "one step beyond 'X'" (experimental). Of course, that would not qualify as a proper WP source. Can somebody find a source and clarify this in the article?  —Thanks in advance, E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 03:08, 23 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

• The Y means prototype per 1962 United States Tri-Service aircraft designation system#Status prefix. This effectively means a pre-production aircraft and is one step beyond experimental (X) as the Colonel stated. -Fnlayson (talk) 04:47, 7 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

The F-22 design evolution articles on Code One Magazine (part 1^[1] and part 2^[2]) has a wealth of images, especially of the proposals from Lockheed, Boeing, and General Dynamics during the RFI, the initial submissions for the RFP, and the design evolution into the YF-22 and then into the F-22. However, I couldn't find whether or not these images are free to use, and as such, is there a way to post low-resolution non-free images in the article? It would greatly help visualize the descriptions in this article.

Steve7c8 (talk) 06:28, 18 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

I posted downscaled thumbnail versions of the images for illustrative purposes. Steve7c8 (talk) 23:49, 19 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Fnlayson @ZLEA @Zaereth Do you know what the process of using non-free images are? I've seen articles use them (typically media articles) and typically they're downscaled thumbnails without any higher resolution, but I'm not familiar with the process for using them. If that's not possible then a lot of images here will have to be removed until I can get express permission from Lockheed or if they're uploaded on something like DVIDS. Steve7c8 (talk) 21:41, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

• This should be covered at WP:NFC, which gives info without overdoing it. An NFC image has to be lower resolution and only be used in 1 article, if other valid alternatives are not available. -Fnlayson (talk) 21:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

(edit conflict) Steve7c8 The guideline for using non-free images in an article can be found at WP:FAIRUSE. I don't have too much experience working with non-free images, so I don't know that I would be of much help. I will say that the article does not list the original sources or copyright holders of the images, so that would complicate the "Identification of the source of the original copyrighted material" part of WP:FAIRUSE. - ZLEA _T\^C 22:02, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

@ZLEA the Wikimedia page for these images do have the source of the material listed. Do they need to be given in the caption as well in for "fair use"? Steve7c8 (talk) 22:16, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'm probably not the best person to guide you through the fair use process. You might try the WP:Village pump, where you are likely to find users with more experience with fair use. - ZLEA _T\^C 23:02, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Steve7c8 (talk)

Lockheed YF-22 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

I have added considerable amount of design history information compiled from several sources to give a summary of how the design came to be. I believe this article can be considered for A-class. Steve7c8 (talk) 14:35, 9 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

• GlobalSecurity.org is not considered a reliable source (WP:GLOBALSECURITY)
• The details in the Notes section require references
• Mullin (1992) is not used
• fn 53 and 58 say "William" instead of "Williams"
• Hehs, Mullin, Williams: location?
• I am not sure what issue Flight International (1990) refers to.
• fn 37, 45, 55: page numbers?

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:39, 11 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

• That Global Security image is a direct scan from the print version of the Code One Magazine article written by Eric Hehs, I'll adjust the citation accordingly.
• I've added references in the second, more detailed note.
• I'll move that to additional reading, but it's sort of a shorter summary that Mullin would expand his 2012 writing on.
• Fixed.
• Code One Magazine is for Hehs is based in Fort Worth, Texas. Mullin's publication is by USAFA affiliated Mitchell Aerospace Institute based in Arlington, VA. Williams' book publisher is based in Norwalk, CT or London depending on distribution.
• Those are listed again under bibliography with the full citation, I've moved it to references as the more appropriate section.
• Page numbers have been added for the first two, the last one doesn't have a page number.

Steve7c8 (talk) 00:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi @Hawkeye7, is the source review a pass now or not after Steve7c8's changes? Matarisvan (talk) 09:08, 3 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Yes. All good now. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:45, 3 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

• File:YF-22A Advanced Technology Fighter.jpg, File:Two Lockheed-Boeing-General Dynamics YF-22s.jpg, File:YF-22 and YF-23.jpg, File:F-22 Raptor resumes flight testing - 030328-F-0000C-001.jpg, File:Lockheed-Boeing-General Dynamics YF-22 USAF.jpg - USAF images - PD in the United States - okay
• File:An air-to-air overhead view of the YF-22 advanced tactical fighter aircraft during a test flight DF-ST-92-09938.jpg - DOD image - PD in the United States - okay
• File:F-22 RFI.jpg - USAF image - a source would be nice
• File:Lockheed Faceted ATF.jpg, File:Lockheed Model 090P 300x172.jpg, File:Lockheed Boeing General Dynamics DemVal Proposal 300x359.jpg, File:F-22 design evolution 595 to 645 200x592.png, File:NATF-22 305x170.jpg - no-free image - has Fair Use rationale - okay
• File:YF-22 Lightning II "Rzuty" outline drawing.png - Wikipedian-generated image - PD - okay

All images have appropriate licences. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:39, 11 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi Steve7c8, saving a spot, will add comments soon. Also, if you could wikimail me the two sources required for the YF-23 article, that would be great. Matarisvan (talk) 17:24, 19 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Matarisvan, do you still intend on reviewing this article for A-class? Steve7c8 (talk) 16:28, 3 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi @Steve7c8, my comments:

• "The ATF would take advantage of the new technologies in fighter design on the horizon": Might "The ATF would take advantage of the new technologies in fighter design" be better? "On the horizon" seems too embellishing.
• Link to air superiority fighter?
• Link to delta wings on first mention instead of second?
• Add a ref for notes 3 and 4?
• Link to Pratt & Whitney, General Electric and General Dynamics?
• Link to side looking airborne radar?
• "is a prototype air vehicle": "was" instead of "is"?
• "are spaced away from": "were" instead of "are"?
• "is applied to the airframe shape": "was" instead of "is"?
• "due to escalating cost and the design": Might "due to escalating cost and because the design" be better?
• Link to angle of attack on first mention instead of second?
• Link to radome?
• Add Federation of American Scientists as the website for ref #29?
• Consider removing ref #39, since no links for it are available?
• Add [https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?p=AONE&sw=w&issn=08890404&v=2.1&it=r&id=GALE%7CA9371744&sid=googleScholar&linkaccess=abs] as the link for ref #47?
• Add [https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1991/04/24/lockheed-wins-huge-jet-contract/89170285-d2c6-4c36-bb23-74dfae672626/] as the link for ref #57 along with its archive URL?
• Add [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269064311_F-22_control_law_development_and_flying_qualities] as the URL for ref #62 along with the DOI listed there?
• Add archive URLs for refs #63 and #64?
• Link to Barton Gellman in ref #57?
• Link to Jeffrey K. Harris in ref #62?
• Add archive URLs for Hehs 1998, Mullin 2012, Mullin 2019?

Matarisvan (talk) 14:24, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

I've incorporated most of the changes and suggestions. Also, Federation of American Scientists wasn't the original publisher of the F-22 test pilot report, it was originally a paper presented at a Society of Experimental Test Pilots conference, and the FAS link is where it can be found. Steve7c8 (talk) 15:23, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Not a problem. Adding my support. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 17:37, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hiking the AT. Connection may be sporadic. Apologies for any curtness or disorganization of replies.

• Lede should state that Lockheed was the prime.
• US or U.S.? Consistency needed.
• The distinction between WP:GENREF and "Additional sources" is not usually seen on well-developed articles. Might be better to merge the Bibliography and Additional sources.
• Personally my eyes tend to glaze over when an article contains too many dates. Maybe only mention the exact date if its important (and it's going to be on the test) Also does Halloween need to wikilinked?
• Would prefer less passive voice (e.g. not the Lockheed team was announced by Secretary of the Air Force Donald Rice as the winner of the ATF competition.)
• delta wings and pilot-induced oscillation are wikilinked only on the second mention. wl "FY", "S-duct", "thrust-vectoring". YF119 and YF120 overlinked. Image captions could stand to have more wls. It isn't considered overlooking.
• Advise adding brief in-text description of the Packard Commission (e.g. that it was a commission of president Reagan.).
• "SR-71-like" needs an en dash per MOS:SUFFIXDASH
• Re: the accident: were any design issues identified and corrected as a result?
• Pratt & Whitney and General Electric had earlier been awarded contracts to develop the propulsion systems with the designations YF119 and YF120 Respectively? These engines were requirements for the selected aircraft? Furnished as government-furnished equipment? How and when was it determined to go forward with the YF119?
• Give nationality of SR-71/YF-12. Lockheed as designer seems relevant especially given that they proposed something like it.
• The top four proposals, later reduced to two, would proceed with Dem/Val. They selected four, then down selected to two? Who were the four? Or they had plans to select four contenders, but decided to only choose two?
• Because the requirement for flying prototypes was a late addition due to political pressure, awkward. consider rephrasing.
• The seven bids were submitted in July 1986. Were Lockheed, Boeing, General Dynamics, Northrop, and McDonnell Douglas the only teams that submitted proposals? Which teams submitted more than one proposal? Lockheed, Boeing and General Dynamics each submitted a proposal or proposals? Article makes it sound like Lockheed was the only contractor that responded during the concept development. True? Mention that Lockheed developed the F-117.
• Sherman Mullin would credit the Lockheed proposal's system engineering volume for the top rank. confused about what this means. Mullin says Lockheed got the contract for its manufacturing capabilities? Implying Northrop did not?
• Having performed poorly during ATF concept exploration while also losing the ATB to Northrop who had a curved surface design, meaning more clear if this is split in two sentences.
• Furthermore, the U.S. Navy under Congressional pressure Try: "Furthermore, under Congressional pressure, the U.S. Navy".
• Were there any differences in the stealth coating between the YF-22 and F-22?
• However, much of the scrutiny fell on Lockheed's Configuration 090P Scrutiny from whom?

Schierbecker (talk) 18:18, 12 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

• Added statement that Lockheed is prime contractor
• Standardized on "U.S."
• As far as having two sections for generic references and additional sources, I think the latter is for works that's not directly cited in the body, but are useful further reading.
• I'll the importance of specific dates for other editors to judge, I personally don't think it's too cumbersome and having month and year is pretty generic, I feel.
• For PAV-2 crash, the issue is that the flight control system was immature and not ready for low-altitude demonstration flights. The YF-22s never flew after that and the F-22 air vehicle is also markedly different.
• The ATF engine effort was a separate parallel effort that pre-dated the ATF itself by a few years, and during Del/Val it was brought under the control of the ATF SPO. The ATF engine was also being competed which is why there were two YF-22s and YF-23s, one for each engine option. The winner of the engine competition would be announced alongside the ATF winner.
• The ATF SPO had originally planned to select 4 companies as finalists for Dem/Val, but this was judged too expensive and unnecessary, so they reduced it to two.
• I added the seven bidding companies as a note.
• System engineering, which involves your plans for conducting trade studies and requirements reviews, was an area that not many companies focused on at the time, but Lockheed did. It was only after being selected that the companies found out how much the ATF SPO valued system engineering plans in their proposals.
• Scrutiny on Configuration 090P from the design team.

Steve7c8 (talk) 16:08, 15 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

• The ATF request for information (RFI) was sent out to the aerospace industry Passive voice. "The [SERVICE BRANCH] published the ATF RfI..." would be more appropriate.
• Furthermore, the U.S. Navy under Congressional pressure eventually announced that it would use a derivative of the ATF winner to replace its F-14 Tomcat as the Navy Advanced Tactical Fighter (NATF) and called for the procurement of 546 aircraft. I take it that the Navy was reluctant to join the Air Force program? This could be more clear.
• "red-teamed" as a verb is confusing. Consider ways to rephrase. Alton D. Slay led the red team for Lockheed or the government? Not sure what "Systems engineering volume" means.
• stealth requirements were drastically increased passive voice again.
• [CITY] comma [STATE] comma.
• TBD. 173.243.167.206 (talk) 17:11, 3 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

  • Fixed.
  • Yes, the Navy was somewhat reluctant to join NATF due to their experience with the TFX (F-111B) in the 1960s.
  • Alton D. Slay served as an independent consultant to "red-team", or pick holes, the proposal, which contains many volumes, including one for the systems engineering plan.
  • Fixed.

  Steve7c8 (talk) 21:32, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi @Schierbecker, hope you're ok on the AT what with the ongoing hurricane. Whenever you're free and well, could you add any other comments you may have or your vote? Matarisvan (talk) 13:35, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

I believe I addressed most of her feedback and incorporated some of the suggestions. That said (and I accidentally left this out in my earlier reply), for some of her points where she asked for additional context or clarification, I feel those fit better in the Advanced Tactical Fighter article where I did expand on them. Steve7c8 (talk) 12:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Steve7c8, I think you should wait for another reviewer since we need 3 supports for promotion and we have 2 now. Schierbecker might not be able to comment for some time since she is in Appalachia which was hit hard this hurricane season, hopefully she is ok and is in all likelihood not getting internet service. Matarisvan (talk) 18:07, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

I am in Vermont and safe. I appreciate the concern. :) In a bit of a tricky situation internet-wise. I'll be able to make short comments and see this review through though. More comments tomorrow.Schierbecker (talk) 01:51, 17 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Schierbecker, we're still waiting on your comments, but there's no rush if the adverse weather hasn't subsided. Matarisvan (talk) 12:59, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

• Can we have a footnote for note 1? Also: since it is in the lead, it ought to be in the body somewhere
• "missileer" normally refers to a missile crew. I haven't seen it used this way before. Is it correct?
• "Lockheed's design team, lead by Bart Osborne under its Skunk Works division" -> "lead" should be "led". Also: "under" is awkward here; suggest "of" or "from"
• Link "supercruise", "thrust", "faceting", 'aerial refueling", "fleet air defense", "maiden flight", "radome"
• "radar range testing at Helendale, California" -> Parenthetical comma after "California".
• "resulting in engine thrust increasing from 30,000 lbf (133 kN) to 35,000 lbf (156 kN) class" -> Delete "class"?
• "Due to Congressional pressure, the U.S. Navy joined the ATF program initially as an observer and in 1988 announced that it would procure a variant/derivative of the winning design as the NATF to replace the F-14." Hasn't this already been mentioned? Suggest moving "Furthermore, the U.S. Navy under Congressional pressure eventually announced that it would use a derivative of the ATF winner to replace its F-14 Tomcat as the Navy Advanced Tactical Fighter (NATF) and called for the procurement of 546 aircraft.[8]" down here. Also: what was the reason/rationale for this Congressional pressure?
• "The second YF-22A (PAV-2, s/n 87-0701, N22YX) with the P&W YF119 made its maiden flight on 30 October at the hands of pilot Tom Morgenfeld." -> Suggest "chief test pilot Thomas A. Morgenfeld"
• "the Lockheed design was also seen as more adaptable to the Navy's Navalized Advanced Tactical Fighter (NATF)" -> "NATF" has already been introduced above, albeit with a different definition. Resolve this.

Looks very good. Only a few issues to resolve. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:44, 6 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

I've incorporated most of the changes and suggestions. A few notes:

• I don't think the definition of faceting as defined in the main article is the same as for the design method for stealth aircraft.
• I'm not sure where to incorporate note 1 in the body, since it occurred well well into EMD, while this article primarily covers the Dem/Val phase.
• Missileer was how Lockheed described the CL-2016, per Hehs 1998.

Steve7c8 (talk) 15:39, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Support Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:37, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

It seems Schierbecker is having ongoing issues, so I will step in to help get this over the line. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

• "similarly high operating speed and altitude as a missileer." A missileer is a person.
• "the design never progressed beyond Dem/Val for full-scale development". Should "for" be 'to'?
• "In 1991, it was anticipated that 650 production F-22s would be procured." This may fit more naturally into the following paragraph.
• What are "the F-22 flight control laws"?
• "flight performance predictions against which their prototypes would be evaluated against". It would be nice to avoid using "against" twice.

And that is all I have. The article seems to be in great shape. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:35, 25 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

• Missileer was how Lockheed described its CL-2016 design, which is why I kept the word in here.

A reader cannot be expected to understand the usage, so it should be replaced or defined in line.

• Agree, I'll change it to "to".
• I'm ambivalent about it either way, so I'm leaving it as is for now.
• "Flight control laws" (or Claw as we engineers sometimes call it) refers to the laws governing how control inputs translate into aircraft movements like pitch, roll, etc.

A reader cannot be expected to understand this from the text. So per Wikipedia:Make technical articles understandable and Wikipedia is not a scientific journal it should be replaced with non-specialist language.

• Removed the second instance of "against", doing the same for the YF-23 article.

Steve7c8 (talk) 03:05, 27 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Two come backs above. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:04, 27 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

• I can change it to "missile platform (or "missileer" per Lockheed)".

'missile platform' is great.

• Would wiki-linking "flight control laws" to flight control modes help?

Not really. I just don't see how a non-expert is going to extract any meaning from "The dedicated airbrake was eliminated in favor of feathering control surfaces using the control laws" (or 'modes'). And MOS:NOFORCELINK has "Do use a link wherever appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links." You explained it pretty well to me above, so it seems doable. Or just delete "using the control laws".

As a side note, would you be able to help close out the YF-23 FA reassessment as well? That one has been sitting for a while, waiting for additional member approval. Steve7c8 (talk) 15:20, 27 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Down to one point. I'll have a look at it, but it may not be soon. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:43, 27 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

For the last point, would a footnote help? Steve7c8 (talk) 21:27, 27 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Not in my opinion. Footnotes are for nice-to-have, semi-superfluous points; not for information you need to read to understand the article. Nor for information you need to have in order to comply with policy. You don't like the delete three words option then? Gog the Mild (talk) 22:33, 27 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Not a fan, because I feel like it would remove important information. Is this acceptable? "In light of this mishap, the F-22 flight control laws, the algorithms governing how control inputs translate into aircraft motions and reactions, took better account of non-linear effects of control surface rate/position saturation and PIO triggering mechanisms." Steve7c8 (talk) 23:40, 27 November 2024 (UTC) Steve7c8 (talk) 05:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)Reply