Talk:Layer Cake (film)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved, retarget Layer Cake to Layer cake. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 07:43, 5 August 2014 (UTC)Reply

Layer Cake (film) → Layer Cake – I believe the film to be the primary topic, as it's received nearly 48,000 more views than the novel in the last 90 days, and produces between 1.7 million and 1.9 million Google hits, versus the novel's 266,000 (the search term using "book" produces 6.5 million results, but it includes many books on the food rather than the novel). As for the title only being Layer Cake, per WP:DIFFCAPS, it's highly unlikely someone will type in Layer Cake and not be looking for the film. Thoughts, everyone? Sock (previously Corvoe) ^{(be heard)} 12:00, 29 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

• Leaning oppose - I think WP:DIFFCAPS is harder to apply to names of foods, which may be perceived as formal names, and are often capitalized like titles on a menu (see, e.g. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]). bd2412 T 12:31, 29 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

@BD2412: I take issue with that argument. The problem in my opinion, at least with those examples, is that every entry on those menus is capitalized. "Onion Rings", "White Chocolate Chip", "Chicken with Broccoli", and "Extra Shrimp" are not proper titles; this is simply a stylization on the restaurants' behalves(?). That, and the worst case scenario is if they're looking for the cake and they capitalize the C (which I still think would be unlikely), there'll be a hatnote right at the top them to the food. You're obviously welcome to disagree with this assessment, just my opinion. Sock (pka Corvoe) ^{(be heard)}_{(my stuff)} 12:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

Yes, every entry on those menus is capitalized. That's the point - that people may think of names of specific recipes or dishes as proper nouns, to be capitalized. This is also reflected in names of recipes in cookbooks (see, e.g., [6], [7], [8], [9]). bd2412 T 13:00, 29 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

I can see where you're coming from. I still disagree that people would assume it's a proper noun, but I respect your opinion and don't see a need to continue to argue with you about it. Thank you for your input! In a related note, if it's decided not to move the page, we should probably change Layer Cake to redirect to Layer cake instead of the disambiguation page, as I think that redirect was due to the novel and film not having a decidedly primary topic at the time. Sock (pka Corvoe) ^{(be heard)}_{(my stuff)} 13:05, 29 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I would completely agree with redirecting to the lowercase; absent the WP:DIFFCAPS argument, it is the clear primary topic of the term. bd2412 T 13:48, 29 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

All right, so I'd say we leave it for now and decide when this RM closes. Sound good to you? Sock (pka Corvoe) ^{(be heard)}_{(my stuff)} 13:58, 29 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

Err, Layer Cake already redirects to Layer cake (disambiguation) and has for a very long time now. I'm not sure there is sufficient reason to change the arrangement. older ≠ wiser 01:42, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

• Support Per WP:DIFFCAPS and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. If somebody goes to the trouble of capitalizing the C, they should be taken to this article, which should include hatnote links to the novel as well as the actual cake and dab pages. --В²C ☎ 23:59, 29 July 2014 (UTC)Reply
• Oppose per BD2412's argument. Names of foods are often capitalized on menus, so Layer Cake should be a redirect to Layer cake. ONR (talk) 02:47, 30 July 2014 (UTC)Reply
• Oppose if I understand the nom that's a 60/40 view split between Layer Cake (novel) and Layer Cake (film)? Sounds to be working fine. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

As far as views on Wikipedia, the film had 50,674 views in the last three months, where the novel only had 2,154. I don't know that it's quite an even split. Sock (pka Corvoe) ^{(be heard)}_{(my stuff)} 11:23, 30 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

Then you should have said that in the nom. However it doesn't change anything since books and readers often capitalize dessert names. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:16, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose. Capitalised or not, the cake is the primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:12, 30 July 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • People who bother to capitalize the C in the search box are more likely to be looking for the cake than the film? --В²C ☎ 00:21, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Reply
• Oppose Not a fan of disambiguating by title case alone since it assumes readers are familiar with Wikipedia naming conventions. "Layer Cake" should be redirected to "Layer cake". Betty Logan (talk) 17:16, 30 July 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • WP:DIFFCAPS makes no such assumption. Have you read it? --В²C ☎ 00:22, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Reply
• Oppose per all of the discussions above. As to the question about Layer Cake not being intended for the film, everyone knows that Layer Cake is a wine and we don't even have an article on that yet. So this is another case where moving a dab page does not fix anything and creates problems. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:54, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Reply
• Oppose – we have a long tradition of primary topic for Apple being the fruit, not the company that gets lots more hits. Similarly Layer Cake should have Layer cake as primary; or perhaps a disambig page as now; but certainly not a film as primary. Dicklyon (talk) 02:02, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Reply
• To clarify: I don't know if this misconception exists, but some of the posts seem to think I'm suggesting Layer Cake is the primary topic over the food. I see how my initial wording implied that, but I was meaning that it was the primary topic over the novel, not the food. I wasn't suggesting we change layer cake, just that Layer cake links to the food and Layer Cake links to the film. Like Pulp Fiction and pulp fiction or Panic Room and panic room. Sock (pka Corvoe) ^{(be heard)}_{(my stuff)} 05:42, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • It is implicit, however, that if Layer Cake is to point anywhere other than Layer cake, then the lowercase version can not be the primary topic of the capitalized version. I think (and I believe others have agreed) that the lowercase version is the primary topic of the capitalized version because names of dishes are occasionally treated as proper nouns. Look at the component words of this phrase - "Layer", which implies several layers of something, and "Cake", which implies a baked confection. I think that it would be very difficult to lift that combination of terms out of primarily referring to a dish, no matter what capitalization was used. This is somewhat different from Pulp Fiction and Panic Room because the uncapitalized uses of these phrases are much less likely to be treated as proper nouns. bd2412 T 12:59, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Reply
    • I'm realizing my argument was a bit shoddy, and would rescind the nomination if not for the one support. I'm a bit confused as to the use of WP:DIFFCAPS in general. To be honest, I thought this discussion would go how the discussion at Source Code went. Everyone agreed that WP:PRECISION and DIFFCAPS applied, but it's been clarified, in this case, that many believe people may search for layer cake as a proper noun. I still don't really agree, but the opposing arguments are all strong and I'm willing to rescind mine. Sock (pka Corvoe) ^{(be heard)}_{(my stuff)} 13:24, 1 August 2014 (UTC)Reply
• Oppose - when a reader or editor uses the search function it does not care about capital letters - thus any version/variation of L(l)ayer C(c)ake needs to be the dessert not this film. MarnetteD|Talk 15:49, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.