Talk:Kʼómoks

hi. i moved some information about the city of Comox to Comox, British Columbia as this article should be about the Comox people (who still exist in the present & still speak the Comox language). dont worry, i will be writing something soon (about their language). peace — ishwar  (SPEAK) 05:28, 2005 May 25 (UTC)

What should I do about the various Comox electoral districts? fed/prov older ridings simply named Comox, there's Comox-Alberni, Comox-Atlin and Comox-something else too. Normally I would venture to rewrit this as a disambig page, with the first nations language just a link; should I maybe instead (rather than relink everything sent here) the line about Comox, BC (town) and make that a link to a new disambig page. Or could maybe what's on this page be put on a Komox page (with an accent on one of those o's I believe?)

Please see my revisions to Lillooet, which had originally directed only to the St'at'imc people/language and get back to me. I'll move on to other ridings in the meantime.Skookum1 05:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)Reply

Here's the disambig information needed once that is decided

• Comox, British Columbia, a town on Vancouver Island
• Comox Valley - the environs of Comox and neighbouring Courtenay and Cumberland
• the Island Comox people
• the Mainland Comox people, also known as the Sliammon or Homalhko
• the Comox people; I suggest here that the formal latinization now in place - komox with accents and I think a plosive mark on the x (?), be used for the Comox language; and as for example in the case of the Sliammon that is their name for themselves; but their language is Comox.

Comox language = will be a redirect to Komox however spelled

Comox is also part of the name of various British Columbian provincial and Canadian federal electoral districts:

• Comox, provincial electoral district 1871-1986
• Comox Valley, provincial electoral district since 1991
• Comox-Atlin, federal electoral district 1903-1914
• Comox-Alberni, federal electoral district 1914-1976, 1987-1996
• Comox-Powell River, federal electoral district 1976-1987

• All these names derive from the Chinook Jargon word for "dog", kamuks

Skookum1 05:31, 28 November 2005 (UTC)Reply

This page is on the Komox Tribe, not the town of Comox. Although much of the history of the tribe interwinds with Comox, the Komox nation had a very different lifestyle. Please edit in ONLY what is relevant to the tribe. Oh, and could someone PLEASE change the article name to "Komox People"? Mayalou6999 (talk) 01:28, 16 December 2008 (UTC)Reply

It's clearly not the Comox, British Columbia town article, or the Comox Valley article; the current name was made because there are no sources for the "authentic indigenous spelling" I've seen K'omoks with accent-marks too, so once we take the step away from the most common usage IN ENGLISH (not in the Komox language, please note), then decisions have to be made about which spelling system for Komox words. Can you point to an online source/website somewhere that uses the "Komox people" constructino; HB myself I prefer to see a native-style spelling on the ethnographic articles vs Comox First Nation which would be the band government article, if there is a Comox First Nation band government that is (there is, right?), and note that on the one hand there's Skwxwu7mesh and Secwepemc and Nlaka'pamux there's Squamish language, Shuswap language and Thompson language; part of the reason for that is what's in most common use among linguists/language studies. I gather you may be Komox yourself - is the "Komox" spelling somewhat standard across the Homalco, Sliammon and Klahoose, i.e. do all three gropus use it? Because "Comox people" is not just for the Comox on the Island; although there may well be a case for separate Sliammon people (or Tl'a'min?) and Klahoose people (?) articles....just please remember the existing article(s) were not intentionally written to slight indigenous peoples' sensitivities; and also please remember that ideally only citable information can be dealt with, although there's a fair bit of slack re WP:AUTO and WP:COI on First Nations/Native American articles because some of the only sources are of course those the article is about (see those links and you'll understand what I mean by that). Iv'e been wanting to see an expansion of this article for some time but have been unequipped to do it, i.e. I don't know the material and don't have the resources. Your input is more than welcome.....what gave you the idea there was any confusion between this and the town article? The spelling? I.e. the use of the C instead of the K? Wikipedia tries to be sensitive to native culture and language; but overall in WP:NAME the overarching consideration is "most common usage", although "authenticity" ALSO is an issue. I hsould also point out that if the article is to bertitled with the native spelling, matching Skwxwu7mesh and Sto:lo, the "people" part isn't included; it's included when an English form of a name is used for hte article, as in the case of Okanagan people where the core indigenous name is Siylx. Not meaning to whack you over the head with all this, I'm known for my long posts; all written in trying to be as thorough as possible, no lecutring intended, just explaining how wikipedia works. If you want to see a good article for your people, stick around and help create it; being open to other points of view is a big part of it see WP:AGF. Also there's a standard format to opening paragraphs giving all possible variations in name and spelling; a "formula" that's in WP:MOS and other places in the wiki-guidebook.Skookum1 (talk) 04:26, 16 December 2008 (UTC)Reply

I was going to add quite an impressive BC Archives photo showing the old graveyard posts and gate at the Comox Reserve, but was wary of adding something funereal; I'll come back later with the link to the image which if you feel is suitable it can be added to the article; it gives a good idea of the Comox art-style (I think). And if you want ot see some well-made ethno articles, see Kwakwaka'wakw and Skwxwu7mesh and maybe Duwamish (tribe) or Twana....i.e. as models for article structure/content....Skookum1 (talk) 04:26, 16 December 2008 (UTC)Reply

BTW articles exist for Klahoose First Nation and Sliammon First Nation already exist; if the use of "Mainland Comox" is a "mistake' for them, maybe made the same way Kwagyul has become mistakenly standard for the Kwakwaka'wakw please say so; ethnographically i.e. in academic literature, they're Mainland Comox; I'm not saying this is right, just partly explaining why I had to rewrite this article's intro a bit....NB Komox people can be parallel to Sliammon people and Klahoose people, which would be subarticles of this article; their "First Nation" titled article should ultimately be about th band government/administration and legal history etc; distinct from ethnographic cultureal material on the "people" pages. I hope you see what I mean, it's to help organize materials and avoid ambiguities; the Comox language has yet to be written; if you can provide mateirals please do so....and I'm well aware I'm blundering in the dark here; not trying to override, trying to explain article style/structure/separations........Skookum1 (talk) 04:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)Reply

Comox (language) and Comox language both redirect here, and shouldn't; there should be a separate langauge page. here is one resource and here's another more minor one and this is just a google search for "Comox language".Skookum1 (talk) 14:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

As "Comox/Komox" is not the indigenous name for this people, or their language, I see no reason to depart from the most common English form, which is Comox. "K'omoks" and "Komox" "K'omoks", with or without accent marks, is a Kwak'wala word - /q'ómoxws/ - so rendering the name in that language would be like titling the Nooksack (tribe) article with the Halkomelem name for the Nooksack, instead of their own. This is an English encyclopedia, not a Kwak'wala one....Skookum1 (talk) 14:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

The recent moves of this article need to cease. If a move is desired it should be done thought WP:RM as it would not be uncontroversial. I take this to mean it should be located at K’omoks until a requested move chooses otherwise.--Labattblueboy (talk) 06:34, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

Even though I'm the one who moved it from the geographical complications of "Comox", this usage may only be for the Island Comox and not including the Tla'Amin (Sliammon) or other mainland groups. These people are also listed at Salishan languages as being Salishan-language-speakers but the Island group now speaks Li'kwala ("Southern Kwakiutl"); the name itself is from that language, but in the 20th Century survivors of the epidemics grew close to the Laich-kwil-tach groups at Campbell River, a few miles farther north, and adopted their language; whether the Island Comox language is even still around seems unlikely; but that particular group of Comox-speakers have now restyled their name and are addressed and written about that way by governments...and scholars/academics.... since such names became current in BC English. Note that I didn't move it to the diacriticalized form, but only to a "stripped' romanization as also with St'at'imc and Sto:lo.Skookum1 (talk) 07:08, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

And note this closure and my comments below it, and the PRIMARYTOPIC disputes by In ict oculi and Vegaswikian, who both claimed (without really knowing much at all about the place or the people) that the primarytopic is unclear; not in BC it's not, as Skeezix, another Canadian, supported the town as the primary usage. And because the native names now commonly in use are all a result of trying to avoid confusion with the towns/regions named for them (directly or indirectly, the latter in the case of the Chilcotin Country which takes its name from the river, which was named for the people), that's why I moved this, also in no small part because the people themselves do not use it. Searches of BC and Cdn government sites I know will demonstrate the adoption of K'omoks into modern English.Skookum1 (talk) 07:14, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

I've moved it back to the 19:56, 15 May 2013‎ Kmoksy version before the move war began. I don't want to have to move protect this article since it's only Skookum1 and Kwamikagami in disagreement. Please, involve the community in deciding and only move it when consensus has been achieved here. Many thanks, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 09:40, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

Self-identification is clearly the norm with Canadian indigenous articles and is also in WP:ETHNICGROUP. There was nothing wrong with my move to K'omoks, but what Kwami did in response was very wrong. Canadian/BC naming standards are clear on the use of using endonyms for ethnographic articles in lieu of "Anglicism+people"; it's not fully codified but readily visible in the contents of Category:First Nations in British Columbia and other related categories. As you can se in sections above, in the past I was opposed to such nouveau spellings, but they are a fact of life in Canada now, if not on the academic bookshelves in other countries. And this is really four peoples, not one, and if it remains at the anglicization it should become Comox peoples....but given your warning here I can't do that....but you can.Skookum1 (talk) 10:02, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

It's pointless to take the ongoing grudge match between me and Kwami to the community; these are naming conventions issues that he and his NCLANG colleagues hold in disdain and never acknowledge, only repeating their own self-authored guideline and even dissing WP:ETHNICGROUP as invalid because it hasn't passed an RfC, even though it nearly verbatim was lifted directly from WP:NCP. Curiously this was done during last year's RMs; I never knew about it or would have liked to input it; instead I was dealing with ongoing insults and baiting from Kwami; who lost those RMs; which form a precedent and reinforce the long-standing convention on the use of endonyms preferred by the people to avoid confusion with white adaptations of these names, which is also why the native peoples of BC have come up with "indigenous" spellings of those terms. Kwami persistently refuses to acknowledge all of this, and claims that I am "disruptive" for filing RMS on "thousands" of articles, when it was him who moved them, often only to redirects back to the stand-alone title; worldwide as it turns out. Where was the community consulted about that?? His glib response below, citing a four-year old post of mine in the days when I myself was resistant to the native names, is typical of what can only be described as weaseling.Skookum1 (talk) 10:02, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

I'm in agreement with Skookm1's statement above, that it should remain at "Comox". — kwami (talk) 09:46, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

That's from 2009 and my opinion on all this has changed substantially, especially since the RMs of last year where you tried to impose obsolete and archaic names on articles that have now been reverted by the community to their proper modern nomenclature. I could throw some of your own old posts back at you, too..... this is just more glib snideness from you, as with "the categories don't matter" (evidence of that is with what happened to the former Skxwu7mesh category, now unwisely and confusingly at Category:Squamish people - and "nobody fixes the lede after moving a title" and other snarky comebacks as you are fond of. As per my comment above, these is not one people but four and should be, if it remains at "Comox", "peoples". And as noted K'omoks may only be for the Island Comox and is a Li'kwala name (your Salishan language page should comment on that, btw, that the K'omoks (as they style themselves, whether you insist their preferences don't matter) have adopted Li'kwala as their community language. What a collective term for all four is in their language is I don't know; what I do know is that the IPA-type name given in the lede here is for the Tla'Amin/Sliammon, I'm not sure that the Homalco and Klahoose would use it to refer to themselves. But of course you only care what's in your academic linguists' texts huh? And not what modern reality in Canada is concerning such names.Skookum1 (talk) 10:02, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

I'm sorry. I must be missing something obvious, as usual :), I see he wanted otherwise here and I see "... sites I know will demonstrate the adoption of K'omoks into modern English..." above. So, who wants Komox or K’omoks? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 09:54, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

I do..... note here from the file history of the K'omoks redirect:

Note these:

−

• (Move log); 13:10 . . Kwamikagami (talk | contribs) moved page Talk:Comox people (temp) to Talk:Comox people/temp ‎

−

• (Move log); 13:10 . . Kwamikagami (talk | contribs) moved page Comox people (temp) to Comox people/temp ‎

−

• (Move log); 13:10 . . Kwamikagami (talk | contribs) moved page Talk:K'omoks to Talk:Comox people (temp) ‎(rv. per WP guidelines)

−

• (Move log); 13:09 . . Kwamikagami (talk | contribs) moved page K'omoks to Comox people (temp) ‎(rv. per WP guidelines)

−

I removed the db template he put on K'omoks, with "remove db notice; this title is part of existing conventions to do with BC First Nations peoples and is part of BC English now and the preferred name per WP:ETHNICGROUP" as the reason. He may have not been an admin but now is violating procedure any way he can. This is what this about; I got around him by using the apostrophe in Nisga'a which was not on the original there to restore the native-preferred title (and which seems to have been used to get around another redirect-block.Skookum1 (talk) 10:06, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

See [K'omoks First Nation; even though their URL is grandfathered from when they were the Comox Indian Band, that term is no longer in use and not just by them. What complicates any search for "Comox people" is that the two terms come up with many references to the town or the air force base that have "people" in the text. NCLANG has only last night been reformed to include text from WP:ETHNICGROUP; self-identification is regularly dissed by Kwami as "we don't care what the people preferred to be called" as if he's speaking for all of Wikipedia.Skookum1 (talk) 10:11, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

Anna, when you moved this back to where Kwami wants it to be, you cited "G6: Housekeeping and routine (non-controversial) cleanup: make way for move" in deleting Comox people to prepare to move the special-apostrophe K'omoks title back to it. Since when is such a move 'non-controversial" and "routine"? Clearly this whole matter is controversial, and the controversy is across a very large group of articles similarly moved by him.Skookum1 (talk) 10:15, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

And the anti-native peoples subtext that underlies opposition to using their names for themselves is not something Wikipedia should be known for; as it is we've already lost indigenous editors because of this kind of thing.Skookum1 (talk) 10:22, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

Hi Skookum1. I deleted Comox people and it's tiny history of a few edits to make way for the move. I don't think that was controversial. The move itself back to Comox people brought the long history over with it. Nothing substantial was lost. Anyway, every time it gets moved from one name to another, it's controversial. That's why I moved it back to the name used before all this controversy began. I think that was the right thing to do.

Okay, so I'm clear Skookum1 wants K'omoks and Kwamikagami wants Comox. Is there anyone else reading all of this that cares one way or another?

With due respect, all that content above is too long and confusing. I'm not here to decide what name it should be. I'm involved to stop warring and help you work things out without going around rules, or finding clever ways to have it your way, or tit-for-tat stuff.

I like to keep things simple, so here's my suggestion: Keep it at Comox people because that was how it was before this started. Discuss it here (or at WP:RM if you want). Try to involve the community. Don't move it before it's really settled. And more than anything, keep it concise or the community will TLDR it. Best wishes, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:33, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

Yes it is confusing, because native issues are confusing to the uninitiated, and I've heard that TLDR line before and being naturally voluble find it grating and see it too often used to ignore important points; that's not a guideline, just an excuse to me; I'm trying to point-form and ramble less, but because of the complications of the issues here it's not possible to write anything shorter; unless I engage in glib comebacks like Kwami typically does; I shoot from the mouth too, but from a larger calibre with much larger and many more bullets. I've tried to involve the community; I can't remember if this was on the bulk RM that got closed without consensus, but Talk:Chipewyan people#Requested move and its sister RMs re on the Yaquina, Yupik and Cayuga were an attempt to engage the community,but got shot down for being too many at once; now Kwami criticizes me for not having a centralized discussion....and complains that I'm 'disruptive' for posting "thousands" of RMs - on articles that he himself turned into little more than redirects back to themselves or even TWODABS dab pages, even when not imposing old-era names that in many cases are now held in disrespute in Canada. I've tried to engage, rather than ignore, the community; and been criticized for even trying and told I'm incompetent, when the person telling me that isn't competent in the topic area himself (indigenous cultures, Canadian English/geography). I feel like Sisyphus, except I'm not the one rolling the rocks back down off hte mountain.Skookum1 (talk) 11:24, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

I didn't mean to offend with my TLDR remark. But I meant what I said. From my exprience, the community tends to stay out of things that are too long. As for me, I'm the wrong person to stating the case to. I'm here to help this get resolved without a war. I came here via WP:RFPP, and not because I care about which name is used.

quite frankly, about that, the community needs some remedial reading courses so that they are capable of reading information that's more than three sentences long....I speed-read, speed-type etc and am from a time when people communicated in paragraphs, not soundbites.Skookum1 (talk) 02:40, 22 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

Back to the matter at hand. My view remains that it should stay how it is unless there is consensus to change it. You may well be right, and it's up to you to convince the community. Simple as that. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:43, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

See the closer's comments at Talk:St'at'imc#Requested move which is a precedent and which endorses moves such as the one here; though because K'omoks is for the Island Comox only and Tla A'min is the usage for all the Mainland Comox groups they can exist as separate titles as there is no name that I'm aware of for both groups Comox peoples would be fine here; Comox people infers "people from Comox", see the dual RM at Talk:Comox, British Columbia#Requested move about that geographic-name problem, which was also ignored by the usual suspect re St'at'imc/Lillooet, Tsilhqot'in/Chilcotin, Ktunaxa/Kutenai, Dakelh/Carrier, Secwepemc/Shuswap and Nlaka'pamux/Thompson, all of them closed in favour of the native name. note also the primary topic discussion at Talk:Comox#Requested move and Talk:Lillooet#Requested move (those are duals and the main discussions may be at the town articles, but they are linked from the pages given. The community has already set the precedent needed, this is being ignored persistently and obstinately and rather than engage discussion, Kwami tries in each case to shut the RM down as "disruptive".Skookum1 (talk) 02:38, 22 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

Anna Frodesiak, from my point of view the current location is fine. Afterall, it was the previous stable location. There are certainly strong merits to a move but I'll leave that to an actual RM to decide.--Labattblueboy (talk) 21:04, 26 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

Splendid. I was worried about my reversion to the last stable version. Now, I think I can walk away from this happily. Thank you kindly. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:40, 27 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

The "last stable version" still has a problem; this is not about one people; it's about at least four (if you read the K'omoks' own website, it's actually more like 7 or 8). Comox peoples should be the title; there is no native endonym for both main groups together; so "Comox" will have to do; but the singular form is incorrect, though it has been "stable". This kind of case is also why in the days of t he "old consensus" that it was felt that disambiguation by such terms could be necessarily inadequate and misleading, and because of the PRIMARYTOPIC of "Comox" in Canada as meaning the town, a disambiguation of the conventional idiom for this group of people is necessary; I myself have worked on this article and also have begun researching it in detail for expansion, and it's clear that it is NOT one people who are under discussion.Skookum1 (talk) 01:25, 27 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

Submit and RM if you feel you can make a case. It's what should have done in the first place given such a move would never fit in the column of uncontroversial.--Labattblueboy (talk) 01:41, 27 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

There is only a redlink for that; an RM is not required, and it is not a controversial change because the topic matter is clearly about a group of peoples, as opposed to one people as the current title suggests; presupposes.Skookum1 (talk) 01:45, 27 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

Submitted an RM to resolve matter.--Labattblueboy (talk) 02:05, 27 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

AFAIK there can't be two RMs on the same page at the same time; and you just started one, no?Skookum1 (talk) 02:47, 27 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

The K'omoks culture resource at this webpage. --Kmoksy (talk) 22:20, 25 April 2015 (UTC)Reply

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Kʼómoks/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Last edited at 15:10, 13 April 2014 (UTC). Substituted at 20:47, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

  A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Comox people/temp. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 5#Comox people/temp until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 (𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 07:16, 5 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

  An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Comox people (temp) and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 January 22 § Comox people (temp) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 1234qwer1234qwer4 13:52, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply