Talk:Jodie Haydon
Latest comment: 2 years ago by StAnselm in topic Albo's divorce date - how is this notable in Haydon's article?
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Are she and Anthony Albanese actually engaged?
editThe lead paragraph says "She will become the next spouse of the prime minister of Australia upon the swearing-in of her partner [Anthony Albanese]". Are they actually engaged? If so, then "partner" should be changed to "fiance" (with a reference to a reliable source noting their engagement). But if they're not engaged, then the sentence about her becoming "the next spouse of the prime minister of Australia" should be changed. PatricKiwi (talk) 10:13, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
- No, they are not engaged. And "spouse" does not mean married, just as Tim Matheson was the spouse of Julia Gillard without marriage.. WWGB (talk) 10:20, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
- I disagree with the statement that '"spouse" does not mean married'. Every dictionary definition of "spouse" that I've found defines it as a "husband or wife", or "a married person". (The lead sentence of the Wikipedia entry for spouse does say (parenthetically): "in certain contexts, it can also apply to a civil union or common-law marriage", but doesn't elaborate on this or give any references.) I maintain that it's inaccurate to say that "she will become the next spouse of the prime minister of Australia" unless they are actually engaged. Once Anthony Albanese is sworn in as PM, I suggest piping the link to say that "she is the partner of the prime minister of Australia". And/or update the page Spouse of the prime minister of Australia to note that - in this context - "spouse" does not necessarily mean "married" (noting Haydon and Matheson as examples. PatricKiwi (talk) 11:03, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
- I also disagree that Haydon is Albanese's "spouse". Spouse is not a synonym for partner or boyfriend/girlfriend, it specifically means husband or wife. I don't think it's appropriate for either Haydon or Matheson to be referred to as "spouse" of the prime minister. What's the issue with just "partner"? ITBF (talk) 13:24, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- I disagree with the statement that '"spouse" does not mean married'. Every dictionary definition of "spouse" that I've found defines it as a "husband or wife", or "a married person". (The lead sentence of the Wikipedia entry for spouse does say (parenthetically): "in certain contexts, it can also apply to a civil union or common-law marriage", but doesn't elaborate on this or give any references.) I maintain that it's inaccurate to say that "she will become the next spouse of the prime minister of Australia" unless they are actually engaged. Once Anthony Albanese is sworn in as PM, I suggest piping the link to say that "she is the partner of the prime minister of Australia". And/or update the page Spouse of the prime minister of Australia to note that - in this context - "spouse" does not necessarily mean "married" (noting Haydon and Matheson as examples. PatricKiwi (talk) 11:03, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
- I have to offer a contrary opinion. I know of several cases in Australia where there is a long term relationship, often with children just like in a marriage, in which the members are called spouses even though no legal marriage has occurred. Given that the vast majority of dictionaries are not Australian, they aren't going to help here. HiLo48 (talk) 00:14, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think if they are "de facto partners" under Australian law then they could be called "spouses". For an Australian dictionary, check the Macquarie: 1. either member of a married pair in relation to the other; a person's husband or wife. 2. (for some official or legal purposes, as when indicating the person to accept certain responsibilities, receive benefits, etc.) a person who is in the relation of a husband or wife to another, whether or not legally married.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:50, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- The comparison has been made by WWGB with Tim Matheson was the spouse of Julia Gillard without marriage. The reality is that Tim Matheson 'lived/co-habited with Gillard. Big difference. Haydon and Albo do NOT live together. This argument is therefore void.
Jodie Haydon is not Albo's Spouse or Domestic Partner
editHaydon does not live with Albo. Nor are they engaged. They are therefore NOt classified as "defacto" They are boyfriend/girlfriend only. Why then do we have "spouse" in the article? No articles use the term "spouse" and it should be replaced with girlfriend or partner, but definitely not spouse? Cruiseoutbreak (talk) 00:17, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Please see the section above. "Spouse" in this case refers to a title. Jalen Folf (talk) 00:28, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- That does not make sense and most of the comments disagree with using "spouse". What do you mean it refers to a title? They are not defacto as they have not got a child together, nor do live together and are not engaged to be married. Therefore the 'title' of spouse does not apply in this case. Furthermore the reliable sources do not use spouse but instead use "partner" or "girlfriend". There has been no case presented here for the use of "spouse" Cruiseoutbreak (talk) 00:36, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- There is a Wikipedia article called Spouse of the prime minister of Australia. Haydon currently fills that role. Until such time as that article is renamed, Haydon will be referred to as Albanese's spouse. WWGB (talk) 03:04, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- You shouldn't use a Wikipedia article as a source.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:07, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not suggesting it's a source. The word "spouse" is used twice in the article, both times as part of spouse of the prime minister of Australia. If Haydon is not Albo's spouse, then the title of that article needs to change to be inclusive of her. WWGB (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Why does it need to change? Every other spouse of the PM actually LIVED with the PM. Haydon is the girlfriend only. Therefore the logic would be to instead remove her from the other article. Haydon and Albo are not domestic partners either as you need to actually live with the person to be a domestic partner according to every definition of domestic partner. Also none of the reliable sources call haydon spouse or domestic partner. So what the f are we doing here using "spouse". The argument for using the word spouse or domestic partner is completely hollow. Maybe we need a RFC on this issue? Welcome further discussion on this as most editors who have commented don't want the term "spouse" to be used yet it has been pushed into the article without any consensus or reasoning based on WP policy. Cruiseoutbreak (talk) 07:42, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Agree with you Cruiseoutbreak, this feels like a case of Wikipedia shoehorning someone into a (made-up) category for the sake of completeness even though Haydon is clearly not Albanese's spouse. I don't object to Mathieson and Haydon being listed with the others for convenience but that doesn't magically turn them into something they're not. Case in point: googling 'Albanese's spouse' just turns up a bunch of link farms. ITBF (talk) 08:44, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks ITBF. It looks like there is a consensus to change this to what the reliable sources say rather than this ridiculous title of spouse which will only mislead people reading the article. Given Haydon and Albo do not live together and are boyfriend/girlfriend only, the article needs to reflect this fact. Can we change it WWGB as you appear the only editor wanting to keep the "spouse" term without any clear or compelling argument as to why based on WP policy? Cruiseoutbreak (talk) 22:47, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Use of the term “spouse” here reflects Haydon’s inclusion in the article Spouse of the prime minister of Australia. You need to make your case there, not here, to either remove her from THAT article, or change the name of that page. WWGB (talk) 23:02, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- WWGB you are the only editor wanting to keep this. The consensus is to remove the "spouse" title. The logic would be to instead remove her from the other article too. Am I missing something regarding consensus WWGB? Cruiseoutbreak (talk) 00:03, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Re-reading the above sections, I count three comments in favour of spouse and three comments against spouse. That's actually no consensus. Further, it is still unclear what change you want to make in this article. The only appearance of the word spouse is this article is inside the existing title of another article. As I have already said, if you want to vary that article title, you cannot do that here. WWGB (talk) 02:31, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- I have gone ahead and removed it. Even if it is no consensus, BLP policy suggests that it be removed. We would need much better sourcing than the caption in a Sky News article. StAnselm (talk) 04:16, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
- Re-reading the above sections, I count three comments in favour of spouse and three comments against spouse. That's actually no consensus. Further, it is still unclear what change you want to make in this article. The only appearance of the word spouse is this article is inside the existing title of another article. As I have already said, if you want to vary that article title, you cannot do that here. WWGB (talk) 02:31, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- WWGB you are the only editor wanting to keep this. The consensus is to remove the "spouse" title. The logic would be to instead remove her from the other article too. Am I missing something regarding consensus WWGB? Cruiseoutbreak (talk) 00:03, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Use of the term “spouse” here reflects Haydon’s inclusion in the article Spouse of the prime minister of Australia. You need to make your case there, not here, to either remove her from THAT article, or change the name of that page. WWGB (talk) 23:02, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks ITBF. It looks like there is a consensus to change this to what the reliable sources say rather than this ridiculous title of spouse which will only mislead people reading the article. Given Haydon and Albo do not live together and are boyfriend/girlfriend only, the article needs to reflect this fact. Can we change it WWGB as you appear the only editor wanting to keep the "spouse" term without any clear or compelling argument as to why based on WP policy? Cruiseoutbreak (talk) 22:47, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Agree with you Cruiseoutbreak, this feels like a case of Wikipedia shoehorning someone into a (made-up) category for the sake of completeness even though Haydon is clearly not Albanese's spouse. I don't object to Mathieson and Haydon being listed with the others for convenience but that doesn't magically turn them into something they're not. Case in point: googling 'Albanese's spouse' just turns up a bunch of link farms. ITBF (talk) 08:44, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Why does it need to change? Every other spouse of the PM actually LIVED with the PM. Haydon is the girlfriend only. Therefore the logic would be to instead remove her from the other article. Haydon and Albo are not domestic partners either as you need to actually live with the person to be a domestic partner according to every definition of domestic partner. Also none of the reliable sources call haydon spouse or domestic partner. So what the f are we doing here using "spouse". The argument for using the word spouse or domestic partner is completely hollow. Maybe we need a RFC on this issue? Welcome further discussion on this as most editors who have commented don't want the term "spouse" to be used yet it has been pushed into the article without any consensus or reasoning based on WP policy. Cruiseoutbreak (talk) 07:42, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not suggesting it's a source. The word "spouse" is used twice in the article, both times as part of spouse of the prime minister of Australia. If Haydon is not Albo's spouse, then the title of that article needs to change to be inclusive of her. WWGB (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- You shouldn't use a Wikipedia article as a source.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:07, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- There is a Wikipedia article called Spouse of the prime minister of Australia. Haydon currently fills that role. Until such time as that article is renamed, Haydon will be referred to as Albanese's spouse. WWGB (talk) 03:04, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- There is no title. We are not America, as this article points out. It's always been a completely unofficial position. StAnselm (talk) 04:22, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
- That does not make sense and most of the comments disagree with using "spouse". What do you mean it refers to a title? They are not defacto as they have not got a child together, nor do live together and are not engaged to be married. Therefore the 'title' of spouse does not apply in this case. Furthermore the reliable sources do not use spouse but instead use "partner" or "girlfriend". There has been no case presented here for the use of "spouse" Cruiseoutbreak (talk) 00:36, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
Title
editJulia Gillard was not married but had a partner, who i marked a be the prime ministerial spouse. The yse of the word "spouse" in this instance is in the form of a title, it is used for partner, not just spouses. 156.34.212.247 (talk) 18:23, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Albo's divorce date - how is this notable in Haydon's article?
editStAnselm How is this sentence "Albanese and his wife of 19 years, Carmel Tebbutt, had divorced in 2019' notable in an article about Haydon? Shouldn't that be in Albo's own article? Cruiseoutbreak (talk) 01:19, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you mean by "notable" (which has a particular meaning here on Wikipedia). It's relevant, if that's what you mean. StAnselm (talk) 03:06, 2 August 2022 (UTC)