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Untitled
editShould be renamed Erispoe, King of Brittany: all the books on the history of Brittany call him a king and not a duke.Benoni 19:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
- I suppose--however, while the term regnum was used to describe Brittany after Nominoë's victory over Charles the Bald, and it was largely independent of Frankish control for centuries, the term itself could be rather vague in application. There are plenty of cases where ducatus (duchy) and regnum are used to describe the same entity (Bavaria in the early tenth century comes to mind). I don't know of any evidence that the Breton leaders considered themselves "kings" in the sense that modern historians might use the term, and most ninth-century chroniclers continued to refer to Brittany as either a ducatus or a comitatus (duchy, county). While this certainly is ethnocentric, it is not inaccurate; moreover, these are the terms commonly used by modern medieval historians as well. SGilsdorf 15:58, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
"Normans"
editI have changed the reference to "Normans" here, rendering it instead by the more customary (albeit somewhat vague) term "Vikings". While derived from the Frankish term Nordmanni ("North-men"), the word "Normans" commonly refers to the inhabitants of the later, Christianized duchy in northern Francia, established by treaty with Charles the Straightforward in the early tenth century, as well as those who left the duchy to seek their fortune in southern Italy. SGilsdorf 15:58, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, it is a relict of translation from the French Wiki that "Normans" is sometimes used when "Danes" or "Vikings" is meant. Of course, it ought to be corrected. Srnec 17:38, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Requested move
editErispoe was not a rex in contemporary documents that I know of. Nor was Nominoe. That title is only accurate for Saloman. Erispoe is pretty unique and causes no disambig problems, so, as with Nominoe, I suggest moving this article there. Then we can concentrate on the merge. (I think the diaresis is French usage and is less common in English, by the way. Nominoe's article does not use it and neither do my English sources on hand.) Srnec 02:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
- Support If this is to have a longer form, it should in any case be Erispoe of Brittany; see WP:NCNT. But Erispoe should be enough. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
- I did it myself. I found a way. Srnec 03:46, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm afraid we all to frequently fall into the trap of using our modern understanding of noble titles from the royal king and duke to the noble duke through baron etc to describe early regional rulers of Europe. And then there is the issue of whether the king is a "divine right" and heriditary sovereign or a warlord who achieved power through battle field victory or even whether his maxium leadership was that of a democratic election. (Even Napolean is really just a general, a warlord, who usurped a throne rather than restore a "divine right heriditary royal leader" ...and the Duke of Wellington eventually deposed him in favor or such a king). I think it is enough to say that some of these early Breton leaders were indeed "Leaders" and describe any title as "understood" or "de facto" or "described as" because our modern notions do not fit and the lack of evidence is a substantial limitation.