Talk:Caquetá Department

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Leave as xxxxx Department: this discussion has run for nearly a month. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 17:42, 13 April 2009 (UTC)Reply
Department of Caquetá → Caquetá Department — Follow convention in Category:Departments of Colombia and other similar articles of departments of other countries. — Chanheigeorge (talk) 04:00, 13 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose What is being requested under "Requested move" and what is mentioned in the template/box at the top of the page does not match. Digirami (talk) 06:23, 28 March 2009 (UTC)Reply
  • That is easily fixed. What is on the WP:RM page often disagrees with what the final name should be. The purpose of WP:RM is simply a notification that the page name needs to be fixed. It makes no difference if the proposer has any idea what the correct name should be, or even blatantly misspells the suggested new name. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 15:40, 4 April 2009 (UTC)Reply
  • Updated to reflect suggestions below. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 15:56, 4 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Any additional comments:

• See also Talk:Department of La Guajira#Requested move and Talk:Department of Tolima#Requested move. Chanheigeorge (talk) 04:02, 13 March 2009 (UTC)Reply
• Comment. Judging from es:Caquetá (departamento), department is not part of the name of the region, any more than "State" is a part of the name of Virginia. Just look at the lead sentence: "Caquetá is a department of Colombia." I would suggest moving to Caquetá, with a hatnote to the river. There are 32 departments of Columbia Colombia, and for all of them the name appears to be just the name, without "department". 199.125.109.126 (talk) 17:20, 18 March 2009 (UTC)Reply
• I agree with that, although it should be consistent across all the articles. Perhaps the convention should be changed, and all the Department articles should be moved to just their names, as opposed to having the word "Department" in the name. What do you think, Chanheigeorge?--Aervanath (talk) 04:49, 19 March 2009 (UTC)Reply
• Probably fine as long as it's consistent, although that would mean a lot of the pages would need to be dabbed by "(Colombia)" or "(department)". Chanheigeorge (talk) 05:53, 19 March 2009 (UTC)Reply
• Here they are. It is possible that some have well known English versions that should be used. This list needs to be edited. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 12:33, 19 March 2009 (UTC)Reply
  • Amazonas Department → Amazonas (use Amazonas department?) - note the first sentence of Amazonas Region (Peru): "Amazonas is a region (called a "Departamento" in Spanish which is roughly equivalent to a province or state) in northern Peru."
  • Antioquia Department → Antioquia (already a redirect)
  • Arauca Department → Arauca (use Arauca department?)
  • Archipelago of San Andrés, Providencia and Santa Catalina → no change needed
  • Atlántico Department → Atlántico (use Atlántico department?)
  • Bolívar Department → Bolívar (use Bolívar department?)
  • Boyacá Department → Boyacá (use Boyacá department?)
  • Caldas Department → Caldas (use Caldas department?)
  • Department of Caquetá → Caquetá (add a hatnote, "For the Caquetá River, see Japurá River.")
  • Casanare Department → Casanare (use Casanare, with a hatnote to Casanare (disambiguation), moving the current Casanare, to Casanare (disambiguation)?)
  • Cauca Department → Cauca (use Cauca department?)
  • Cesar Department → Cesar (use Cesar department?)
  • Chocó Department → Chocó (use Chocó department?)
  • Córdoba Department → Córdoba (use Córdoba department?)
  • Cundinamarca Department → Cundinamarca (already a redirect)
  • Guainía Department → Guainía (add a hatnote, "For the Guainía River, see Rio Negro (Amazon).")
  • Guaviare Department → Guaviare (add a hatnote, "For the Guaviare River see Guaviare River.")
  • Huila Department → Huila (use Huila department?)
  • La Guajira Department → La Guajira (already a redirect)
  • Magdalena Department → Magdalena (use Magdalena department?)
  • Meta Department → Meta (use Meta department?)
  • Nariño Department → Nariño (already a redirect)
  • Norte de Santander Department → Norte de Santander (already a redirect)
  • Putumayo Department → Putumayo (already a redirect)
  • Quindío Department → Quindío (already a redirect)
  • Risaralda Department → Risaralda (use Risaralda department?)
  • Santander Department → Santander (use Santander department?)
  • Sucre Department → Sucre (use Sucre department?)
  • Tolima Department → Tolima (use Tolima department)?)
  • Valle del Cauca Department → Valle del Cauca (already a redirect)
  • Vaupés Department → Vaupés (use a hatnote for Vaupés River)
  • Vichada Department → Vichada (use a hatnote for Vichada River)
• The problem with this list is that a lot of these pages are already taken, and we'll need to come up with a new scheme for naming these departments when dab is necessary, like "xxx (Colombia)" or "xxx (department)". The old scheme "xxx Department" or "Department of xxx", while perhaps not the most accurate, has the advantage that it's consistent and easy to remember. So after a bit of consideration I have to say I'm in favour of keeping as it is. Chanheigeorge (talk) 12:57, 19 March 2009 (UTC)Reply
• Department should not be capitalized though. Using (department) makes them the same as their spanish equivalents. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 13:05, 19 March 2009 (UTC)Reply
• Actually, I think the disambiguator should be "(Colombia)" all the way through. (Colombian department) would also be ok.--Aervanath (talk) 04:30, 20 March 2009 (UTC)Reply
  • I have to admit, that for an English speaker, department doesn't make a lot of sense - the English translation of "departamento" would seem to actually be something like "region", even though all I can find used is "department". Just checking through the first few, they would need to be named on kind of a case by case basis, as there are plenty that are both a department and city in Columbia Colombia, such as Boyacá, Boyacá, and calling the department Boyacá (Colombia) would just create confusion. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 06:06, 20 March 2009 (UTC)Reply
• Don't be quick to rename something because Wikipedia in Spanish does it one way. Consult the naming conventions for geographic places to come to a correct solution. But, it looks like the current form is acceptable, but could have ", Colombia" added. Digirami (talk) 04:25, 27 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

Furthermore, the CIA World Factbook called these administrative subdivisions "departments." So if anything, "Antioquia Department, Colombia" should be the best format for the articles name of this. No disambiguation is to be used, so forget using (Colombia) or (department). Digirami (talk) 22:12, 27 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

I don't think anyone is disputing that they are called departments, but just that it is not a part of the name, so they can be called Antioquia department, or Antioquia, Columbia Colombia, but not Antioquia Department. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 01:03, 29 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

Antioquia Department, or Department of Antioquia (however you choose to say/phrase it), would be the official name translated from Spanish. That much is for sure and it applies to everyone of them. But for naming these articles, it really comes down to the word "Department." Should we follow the naming conventions (specifically under "Administrative subdivisions"), you will see the general guidelines for this situation. It would seem that according to it, the convention for naming articles on Colombian departments would be "name Department" (i.e. Antioquia Department). Had they been called provincias (provinces), then the name alone would be just fine (i.e. Antioquia)... but its not. This format is seen across the board in countries that have departments, or any non-province in name, as the first-level subdivision (see here). Digirami (talk) 06:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

Correction. The department of Antioquia, in Columbia Colombia, is called Antioquia, which in English is translated as "Antioquia". You will note that the department of Atlántico points out that the English translation is "Atlantic", but that is not the common name, in English, of that department. Department is just plain not a part of any of their names. For example, the actual name of some cities include the word "City", and some do not. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 17:37, 29 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

If I follow your reasoning correctly, your question is about the use of a capital 'D' in the tile, that is: "Tolima department" is good enough but "Tolima Department" is not, because 'department' is simply the description of the entity, not part of its name. Am I right? - Nabla (talk) 20:32, 29 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

Yes, except that would not be preferred because department is being used as a disambiguation, and hence would be in parentheses in Wikipedia. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 16:00, 30 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

First off: it's Colombia, not Columbia; there is no "U". Second:

“Créase el Departamento de Caldas, entre los departamentos de Antioquia y Cauca, cuyo territorio estará delimitado así: El río Arma desde su nacimiento hasta el río Cauca; este aguas arriba hasta la quebrada de Arquía, que es el límite de la provincia de Marmato, por lo límites legales que hoy tienen, como también la Provincia del Sur del Departamento de Antioquia. Parágrafo. La capital de este departamento será la ciudad de Manizales".

That is taken from here. They are called Departments because they are part of their official name. You can tell from the capitalization of department, which makes it a proper noun. Third: it doesn't matter what they are called in Colombia, but rather how they are called in ENGLISH. But again, Wikipedia has naming conventions for this sort of stuff (read them again), which I have been trying to use to come up with the proper format. The format, following all existing examples and conventions will be have to be "Caldas Department". Using just "Caldas" might be fine in the Spanish Wikipedia, but not here. Fourth: Atlantic might be a direct translation of Atlántico, especially when referring to the ocean, but that is not the case when it comes to the department. For example, the CIA still calls that department Atlántico, not Atlantic (probably to avoid confusion with the ocean). Fifth: cities, for a large extent, are handled differently... so don't bring them into the conversation. Digirami (talk) 06:01, 30 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

The website you quoted above is inconsistent on capitalization of department, and appears to be more for emphasis than definition. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 16:08, 30 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

Actually it is. Check again. Digirami (talk) 02:41, 31 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

Well, the page begins with "Caldas es uno de los 32 departamentos de Colombia, con una población aproximada de 968.740 habitantes (acorde al censo del DANE del 2005) y una superficie de 7.888km². Su capital es Manizales.

Forma parte del Eje Cafetero y de la región paisa. El departamento tiene límites al norte con el departamento de Antioquia, al oriente con los departamentos de Cundinamarca y Boyacá, al occidente con el departamento de Risaralda y al sur con ese mismo departamento y el Tolima.",[1] but how about examples in English? The CIA factbook page does not capitalize department, or include it in the name of each department.[2] 199.125.109.126 (talk) 17:37, 31 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

Great job, but you know what makes my example better? Since it is a direct quote from a legal document, everything has to be copied as is, from capitalization to punctuation. And, here is the cool thing, there are instances you don't have to capitalize the D in department, like if I said "I live in the state of Florida." But I hope you noticed that everything "Departamento de ..." is italicized, it is capitalized correctly. And the CIA's website has is capitalized fine. Digirami (talk) 00:13, 1 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

The problem is two fold. One, even if the legal name when it was created in 1905 was "Departamento de Caldas", in Spanish, is that the common name, and second what is the common name in English? WP does not always use the full legal name, but instead uses the common name. The name of Florida is the "State of Florida", but we do not use that for the article name, as that is not the common name. Finding out the common name for Caldas, or any of the other 32 departments, is simply a matter of finding out in English what is it most commonly called. From what I have been able to see, it is simply "Caldas". Can you even imagine someone writing, the 32 departments of Colombia are Amazonas Department, Antioquia Department, Arauca Department, Atlantico Department...? 199.125.109.126 (talk) 05:54, 1 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

But we are talking about coming to a consensus to establish a common naming convention for these article. Sure if you make a list of the departments of Colombia, you aren't going to say Amazonas Department, Antioquia Department, etc. But for an article name, Amazonas Department makes sense, especially in the cases of the departments like Bolívar, Sucre, Amazonas, Córdoba and Santander that would need a disambiguation since those names are common in Latin America & Spain. Just keeping it like Bolívar Department is very simple and clean. And the format for all the departments have to be the same. Digirami (talk) 00:13, 2 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Deciding on a standardized naming convention for the 32 departments is secondary to first finding out what they are actually called, in English. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 12:05, 3 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

• Need more information The use of the word "department" seems to be translated literally from the Spanish, which is somewhat OR and may not be the preferred localization in English, where "department" is not used to describe geographical partitions. "Colombian state" or "province" is probably a more suitable disambiguator. But are there any official translations? How would an English-speaking diplomat be guided on what to call them? Also note that in addition to the departments, there is also a "Capital district". The word "district" is also acceptable, in English, to describe the departments (though, this could clash with the homonym "District of Columbia"). Ham Pastrami (talk) 23:03, 3 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

• CIA World Factbook and the US Department of State calls them departments. I see no reason to differ from that. (Bogotá Capital District is fine).
  
• We know what they are called in English; same as in Spanish (again, see CIA World Factbook). Naming conventions for the article title is what's important. Take Ecuador's subdivisions for example, which are provinces. The new naming conventions for Ecuadorian provinces is "name, Province" (ex. [[Guayas Province; the older version was Guayas Province, Ecuador). Most of the departments are going to need disambiguation anyways, so why not incorporate it into the article title. Digirami (talk) 00:40, 4 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

• Judging from your 1905 document, they may be called "Departamento de Antioquia", etc., which, if you keep "department", would most closely translate into "Department of Antioquia". That being the case, is there any English language usage of that name? What do all the tourist guidebooks, and news stories that have to report on something happening there use? I was hoping that there might even be movies that featured department names, but I can't seem to remember any departments named in, for example, Romancing the Stone. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 01:26, 4 April 2009 (UTC)Reply
• Here are examples of what I am looking for, from a google search for "Antioquia site:cnn.com" -

• "located in Antioquia, Colombia"
• "Victor Manuel Mejia Munera and two bodyguards were killed Tuesday when police tracked them down on a farm in the northwestern province of Antioquia"
• "and flooded the town of Nechi, in the province of Antioquia"
• "She turned herself in to authorities in the state of Antioquia"
• "attacked the municipality of Dabeiba, in northwest Antioquia state"
• "disappeared near a town in a rural area of the northwestern state of Antioquia on Wednesday". 199.125.109.126 (talk) 01:31, 4 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

• Thanks for your fast responses, guys, and I apologize if you had to repeat some stuff that you already went over. From the looks of it, I think the ", Colombia" suffix would probably work best for the article titles (e.g. Antioquia, Colombia). It follows common place-naming practices in English, it is concise, and it is non-ambiguous. So that would be my recommendation. Ham Pastrami (talk) 02:17, 4 April 2009 (UTC)Reply
• By the way, where naming conventions are concerned, you may find these highlights useful, all of these seem to support the recommendation that I made (from sections 5 and 6.1 of WP:PLACE):

• When there are conventional means of disambiguation in standard English, use them
• Places are often disambiguated by the country in which they lie
• With the names of cities... as well as administrative divisions, the tag is normally preceded by a comma, as in Hel, Poland and Polk County, Tennessee
• Names of classes of places follow the same guidance: do what English does. In particular, when dealing with administrative subdivisions, we write of... Chinese and Roman provinces, not sheng or provinciae I hope all that provides strong enough rationale for everyone to agree on the proposed solution. Ham Pastrami (talk) 02:32, 4 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

• All of the above proposed names have been checked for other places in Colombia, with suggested hatnotes. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 16:34, 4 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

• I don't think "Name, Colombia" might be the best format. That sort of format is usually used for cities since cities are often address in that way, like "Quito, Ecuador", or "Santiago, Chile", or "Cali, Colombia". Keeping "Department" at the end is a very conventional means of disambiguation. You can add", Colombia" at the end if, in the future, further disambiguation is needed. Digirami (talk) 19:41, 4 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

• It may be convenient, but I am unable to find any documented use of the format Name Department, such as Antioquia Department (other than Wikipedia, of course). We don't get to make up usage, we document it. See, for example,[3] which produces only three hits using the words "Antioquia Department" in a news story, and none of them capitalize department. I have to compare that with the other 2,224 news stories about Antioquia,[4] and say that Antioquia Department is incorrect. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 00:43, 5 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

The problem with news sources is that they don't necessarily follow/agree with the convention we have to establish on this site. I bet if I look up an administrative subdivision, a news article might not agree with the convention established here. I looked-up Guayas and Manabi and found very little, if any, articles that follow the convention established for Ecuadorian provinces. Does it make our naming convention wrong? No. Just different. Besides, some articles on your first link call Antioquia a province (which it is not). So how right can they be...

Here is why "Name Department" works, and not "Name, Colombia": names of departments that are found elsewhere in the country and region. There are three cities/towns named Córdoba in Colombia. But, "Córdoba, Colombia" can refer to any one of those three towns, not to mention the department too. So why should it apply to the department and not those towns (granted, those are probably small town, but what if Córdoba was a larger city). But, Córdoba Department confuses no one as to what the article talks about. Digirami (talk) 03:29, 5 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

I have no problem using Córdoba department, with department not capitalized. The word "department" means nothing to English speakers, which is evidently why CNN chooses to use "state" or "province" instead. A google web search seemed to prefer using department. I see that Department of Antioquia is used exactly once, and department of Antioquia only twice in Google news, although almost all of the 2,000 hits are actually in Spanish. Of the 15 English language google news hits for Antioquia department, province is used 4 times, state 1 time, and department 7 times (all of the cnn.com hits are web hits, not google news hits). The convention for Ecuadorian provinces may or may not be correct, or incorrect, I have not looked at it. An example of one article being wrong is no excuse for making another article also wrong. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 04:49, 5 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Just a note that your statement is contradictory, you say that "department" means nothing to English speakers and then that google web search seemed to prefer using department and also that, other than CNN, province is used 4 times, state 1 time, and department 7 times in english language news articles. That is, to me it looks like there is no English common use, some go for department (that does mean - also - exactly the same as departamento, in Spanish, as a couple of dictionary entries at Wiktionary and WordNet show), some go for province, a few for state (probably by US naming influence?)

Being so, i.e. assuming there is no common English usage, I suggest that department would be the best choice, for being both understandable to English language readers, and closer to the Colombian naming.

Looks even harder to tell wether department is part of the official name or not but probably that is not even the most important part. Most important would be common use and it looks like it is department of XXX or simply XXX if it is implied by the context that it is about the department (I'm may be a bit off here, influenced by the Portuguese usage of the similar distrito, district in English)

So "Department of XXX" and "XXX (department)" both look fine to me (with the not used one as redirect to the one that gets used). Given WP usual style tends to be to use parenthesis for disambiguating titles I think "XXX (department)" would be the best option.

Nabla (talk) 00:23, 6 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

"Cordoba department" seems not likely. If you look at every existing example (an Argentina province, a Chilean region, a Bolivian department, a Paraguayan department, a Uruguayan department, a Peruvian region), the unit is capitalized.

But back from the beginning, I'm going to list what we know:

1. They are called departments as evident by direction translation of departamento and by what is listed in US government sources.
2. The names of the departments have no English translations (ex, Atlántico is still Atlántico in English).
3. There seems to be no standard usage in English (i.e. are they commonly referred to by "Name", "Name Department", or some other variation we don't know of). Of course in Spanish, it is simply referred to by "Name".

• There might to be a couple examples where "Name" is the common English usage, but it is not universal to all departments. This is probably due to the amount of exposure/contact with the English speaking world.

4 The problem here seems to be with departments that have names seen pretty much everywhere (I will admit, that if the primary usage of Sucre, Cordoba, Santander, Amazonas, and Cesar referred to those departments, this conversation wouldn't exist). We have to disambiguate them in a smart way; and if we do it in a certain way, it has to go across the board to all departments.

The ways to disambiguate by means of the general naming conventions for geographic places:

In other cases, a disambiguating tag will usually be needed. In some cases (as with most U.S. towns) it is conventional to add such a tag even when it is not strictly needed for disambiguation purposes. The following general principles apply to such tags:

• Places are often disambiguated by the country in which they lie, if this is sufficient. However, when tags are required for places in the United States, Canada and Australia, use the name of the state, province or territory (if the place lies within a single such entity).
• If using the country name would still lead to ambiguity, use the name of a smaller administrative division (such as a state or province) instead.
• Rivers can also be disambiguated by the body of water into which they flow.
• With the names of cities, towns, villages and other settlements, as well as administrative divisions, the tag is normally preceded by a comma, as in Hel, Poland and Polk County, Tennessee. Any specific national convention takes precedence though.
• With natural features, the tag normally appears in parentheses, as in Eagle River (Colorado). Specific pre-existing national conventions may take precedence though.
• Generic parenthetical disambiguating tags as used for most Wikipedia articles are used only occasionally for geographic names (as in Wolin (town), where no regional tag would be sufficient to distinguish the town from the island of Wolin).

If specific disambiguation conventions apply to places of a particular type or in a particular country, then it is important to follow these. Such conventions (or links to them) can be found in the section below titled Specific topics. If a country has no convention listed, and there is a clear pattern among the articles on places in that country, follow it. Please note any such pattern here, as a proposed national convention.

#1 isn't useful as I've established. #2 doesn't either. #3 doesn't apply. #4 might be useful. #5 doesn't apply. #6 is a last resort. Of course these would not apply if there is an established naming convention for geographic place in Colombia. We can start a discussion for one, but this isn't the place for it. But, for the time being until a naming convention can be established, let's leave things as is. Digirami (talk) 19:30, 6 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

It sounds like what you are looking for is a way to use the same format for all 32 departments, except of course for Department of the Archipelago of San Andrés, Providencia and Santa Catalina which would be ridiculously long, plus you seem to prefer "Name Department", instead of the correct name of "Department of Name" perhaps so that they would alphabetize easier, even though that format, "Name Department" is used no where but Wikipedia, and Wikipedia is not and can not be a primary source - we always always always have to follow what others use. However, there are fifteen of them that can use just the format Name, and do not require anything else. I think that we all agree that state or region or province is not appropriate, but what I am finding is that in most cases they are used like states of the United States, Name, not State of Name, as would be the full correct name. So I recommend that were they can be used as "Name", use that, and where they need something else, use "Name department", or Department of Name, or Name, Columbia, as those are all formats that others actually do use. Pick one, but pick one that others use, don't make up one for Wikipedia. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 23:27, 6 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

(to digirami) Just a note that not *all* existing examples are as you say, e.g. Braga (district). Sure, it is not in South America but in Europe, nor from Spanish language but from Portuguese language (still that's close enough in this case). Other than this detail I agree with your summary, yet I note it does not exclude "XXX department" (you say that's unlikely, but not out of the question) nor "Department of XXX" (you'd accept that, I guess) neither "XXX (department)" (last resort... is still a resort). It does exclude "XXX, Colombia" as that is mostly used for places not regions ('points' in a map, as opposed to 'surfaces'), and I agree with that.

(to 199.125.109.126) I think consistency is important to aid editors' writing, so even if the actual article title is different from department to department it would be nice to find some consistent naming to use as redirects (a consisten naming all across would look better, say, in a category, but that is secondary)

Maybe we could try to write a short summary of the current standing (I guess the opinions will not change much...) and make a Request for Comment? and notify WikiProject Colombia too? - Nabla (talk) 01:03, 7 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

(PS) taking a look at WikiProject Colombia I noticed that Natural regions of Colombia use "XXX Region", though 'XXX region' is also used in the articles text... Interesting. - Nabla (talk) 01:07, 7 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

• Quite often extra matter must be added to an official name to disambiguate, not only in Wikipedia. For example, in Wales, known as a "land of few surnames", there may be a few men all officially named James Evans living in the same area, and one may be usually known as "James the Post" to disambiguate, and similarly with others. The names of the USA states are well known. The names of Colombian departments are not well known outside Colombia, and many of them's names are the same as or similar to the names of other things inside or outside Colombia. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:23, 7 April 2009 (UTC)Reply
  • I may be repeating myself here, but I would propose that the 15 that can stand alone use the format Name, the remaining 17 use the format Name department, except for the really long Archipelago one, and all of them have redirects both from Department of Name and Name department (for the 15 using the format "Name"). 199.125.109.126 (talk) 15:47, 7 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

We just can't have two different formats for the naming conventions of the departments of Colombia. It says right in the naming conventions:

It is useful for all administrative divisions of the same type in the same country to share the same format (for example, all townships in the United States have the format: Manalapan Township, New Jersey), so if one district in a country is moved from X to X District, it is worth discussing whether all districts should be moved. But this should not be done when inconvenient or as a violation of idiom.

Pretty much what it's saying is that all article title for all departments should have the same format. You can see it in any subnational entity in any country (ex: counties in the US follow the "Name County, State" format, even if most don't need "County, State" added as a disambiguation). So what we choose has to go for all of them.

Anthony Appleyard made a good point: the names of Colombian departments are not well-known in English, with the exceptions probably being Valle de Cauca and Antioquia (due to their exposure to the English speaking world). So some kind of descriptor ("Department") in the article title would go a long way. Digirami (talk) 07:56, 8 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

I have no problem with "department" being in the article title, but if it follows the name, it is not a part of the name, and should not be capitalized. For simplicity, though, the 15 that do not need it should use a redirect to simply their name. It is only in the U.S. that we pedantically name cities as City, State. Most towns in the United States are not "Townships", and therefore are not named Town Township, State. Manalapan Township is a misleading example. Most towns are towns, and are named Town, State. According to Township (United States), only ten states use the name Township. In the case of counties, it is helpful to add County, to distinguish them from cities or towns, and interestingly enough, for the two that I checked at least, even though the common name is for example Placer County; according to the seal, the actual name is County of Placer. Not so with the departments of Colombia. I can find no common usage of the form Name Department, such as Antioquia Department, although I can find common usage of the form Name department. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 11:25, 8 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

You don't get it. The point was whatever format is established, thing of that type should have it. Every town and city in the US (except the top 25) follow the "Name, State" format, and if it's a township it's "Name Township, State"; pretty much identical. Same format is apparent in Colombian towns (like Candelaria).

You keep pointing to Antioquia as an example because it is probably the only one that gets mentioned in the outside world and is therefore he departments most likely to be referred to by "Name" in the modern context (if not the only one too). But, practically speaking, why should an article titled "Antioquia" refer to the department and not to this? I'm sure its short name is Antioquia, too. "Department" distinguishes between the both (and other seven) and helps as a descriptor to the way lesser known departments in Colombia. Digirami (talk) 20:34, 8 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Actually I use Antioquia because it is the first one alphabetically which requires no disambiguation. I'm sure that back in the day when it was a state it was called just Antioquia, just like back when Texas was a country it was just called Texas, not the Republic of Texas. However, we have to go by current use, not by what things were commonly called a hundred years ago. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 12:18, 9 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Then again, when you mention the word "Texas", people know what you're talking about. Can the same be said of Antioquia? Very unlikely since, again, these places are barely known outside of Colombia. Digirami (talk) 00:34, 10 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Article names are not intended to be explanatory to someone who has never heard of them. They are intended to be the most common name used by people who have heard of them. If someone was interested in, and I'll use a different example this time, Quindío, they would go to the article and find out that it was a department in Colombia. People who are familiar with it simply call it Quindío, and therefore by our naming principles that is what the article should be named. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 16:04, 10 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Uh huh, cause I use this article's title to refer to the place... but it doesn't make it wrong. Same goes for the departments' current naming conventions. Digirami (talk) 02:32, 13 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Hi! I have moved Department of Caquetá → Caquetá Department, Department of La Guajira → La Guajira Department, and Department of Tolima → Tolima Department. I have no opinion on the best naming (Department? Region? ...) but I presume Department is perfectly understandable by English readers (see Wiktionary and WordNet) and also that it is best to have consistent naming across articles.

For Caquetá and La Guajira articles I've simply deleted the previous content (redirects only). As to Tolima article I also performed an edit history merge of what looked like a copy/paste move from April 2008.

I hope it helps and if I've messed something up please leave me a note and I'll try to fix it promptly. Enjoy! - Nabla (talk) 22:53, 24 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

I do not believe that department is a part of the name of any of the 32 departments, and thus should be in parentheses as a disambiguator when the name of the department can not be used. There are 17 that need to be named XXX (department), and one XXX (Columbia). The rest can be named just XXX, though a few need a hatnote. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 04:35, 25 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

Relisted, with the above suggested moves. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 16:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.