Talk:Bitters

There is no angostura bark in Angostura Bitters:

• The label text in Spanish and English
• The bitter truth at drinkboy.com

Smerdis of Tlön 17:06, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks those are good references - although other sources disagree [1], I'm inclined to believe the label.

However, I'm guessing the situation is more complex. Many sources make it clear that the name comes from the town, not the tree/shrub, but that doesn't mean it never contained the bark.

It is pretty clear from the corporate history [2], that Dr. Johann Siegert, Surgeon General to Simon Bolivar's army developed Angostura Bitters as a general medicinal tonic (which is how it was adopted by the British Navy).

Also Native Americans in the area had long used Angostura bark as a herbal medicine[3] in much the same way. It is also pretty clear that Siegert learnt of the bitters from the local Native Americans.

Given the label, it must be the case that the bottle doesn't contain bitters from the Angostura bark today. So either the original recipe included Angostura bark and there is a reason that that is a bad thing today (as per Coca-Cola and coca, or because the bark wasn't available following the move to Trinidad) so the recipe was changed. Or, there was a range of other natural bitters in the area and Siegert happened to choose one which was not Angostura bark and the company is keen to make this clear in order to keep their recipe secret. -- Solipsist 17:50, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I remember reading somewhere that Angostura bark is toxic. The original formula may have contained it, but they may have removed it after a health scare, or just because few people were using it as a medicine anymore. Smerdis of Tlön 19:29, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Siegert named Angostura Bitters after the town of Angostura (now Ciudad Bolívar) in Venezuela, where he was based. While it is possible that Siegert got the recipe from local Amerindians, there is no evidence of this one way or the other - certainly the family history does not credit any "external" sources for the formula (not that this makes it impossible, simply that it makes it unknowable to those of us who simply speculate).

Along those lines, I must take issue with the assertion that the flavour comes from gentian; this must be conjecture, since the ingredients are a closely guarded secret. Guettarda 22:20, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This site on ethnobotany lists gentian and orange as the chief bittering agent in Angostura. -- Smerdis of Tlön 02:13, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

And, the label says, "An aromatic preparation of water, alcohol, gentian and vegetable flavoring extractives and vegetable coloring matter." It seems safe to say that gentian is a major ingredient. -- Smerdis of Tlön 02:20, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Interesting - I never noticed that gentian was listed on the label...Somehow I always thought the ingredients were local (or at least "regional" - ie, Venezuelan). Speaking of which, I don't even own a bottle of the stuff right now - poor excuse for a Trini, I'd say. Guettarda 17:08, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well either way, the article contradicts itself on this matter. Either one or the other must be removed, and cited.Salvar (talk) 21:48, 1 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

I've moved some material here that someone posted on the Angostura disambiguation page. However, that material, and some of the material already on Bitters, really belongs on a page specific to Angostura Bitters (the product). No such page seems to exist. Angostura Bitters redirects to Bitters (the general type of product of which Angostura Bitters is just one example), and the link to Angostura™ Bitters on [[Bitters], redirects to House of Angostura (the company that makes Angostura Bitters). I don't know how to create the new article and re-arrange the redirects, but it'd be nice if someone would.69.63.62.226 02:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)Reply

It seems some of this has been done, but i still think there is too much specific information on the page about angostura bitters and that it shoudl perhaps be moved to the new page. 82.6.79.160 15:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

There is no mention of sweedish bitters, a powerfull remedy used for centuries. 4.190.225.88 04:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

This page makes no distinction, it appears, between aromatic bitters and potable bitters, though both kinds are listed in the "Types and Brands" section. The main article is almost entirely about aromatic bitters. Should there be a subsection on potable bitters? There are a number of different styles and kinds of those, including amaro, which should link to/from this page, krauter likor (for which no page exists), amer picon, etc., as well as Swedish bitters (I know nothing of these, regrettably). should this be reorganized? Shabbychef (talk) 19:58, 11 April 2008 (UTC)Reply

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The first 5 external links are to company pages from the producers of bitters. Why these 5, why not others, why any? WP:Spam | WP:EL Discuss? 71.224.206.164 (talk) 05:44, 31 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

About the external link located at the end of the History section: "Bitters are also known to increase ability in performing scientific experiments, mainly when performed at the NSLS, beam line X18B. [3=http://www.nsls.bnl.gov/]" Am I the only one to think this is a private joke? (Roland.flutet (talk) 03:11, 10 April 2011 (UTC))Reply

you put in the same article two kind of beverages, which in Italy are completely different, amari and bitter.
Bitter is a very dry and very bitter kind of aperitif, whose most popular brand is Campari of Milan. As aperitif and as cocktail ingredient it is a sort of milanese alternative to the dry vermouth of Turin.
On the contrary, "amaro" (that in fact means "bitter" in italian) is a bitter-sweet digestif, made with a variety of herbs and usually coloured with caramel. It is the most popular kind of italian digestif. Usually it is not used as ingredient in cocktails, but some of them, china and rabarbaro, are served hot with a lemon slice.
Lele giannoni (talk) 16:34, 9 March 2010 (UTC)95.224.205.211 (talk) 16:32, 9 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.224.205.211 (talk) 16:19, 9 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Independently of the above comment, I've added Amaro (liqueur) to the 'See also' section. There does seem to be an unadressed overlap between the two pages. As a Brit who has lived mostly in Italy, the above remark seems to make a lot of sense. Fwiw, I see that it:Amaro (liquore) (which lists angostura, for example, alongside Italian amari) is the Italian interwiki link for both Bitters and Amaro (liqueur). An it.wp page for bitters, it:Bitter (bevanda), does exist, but is currently no more than a stub (sporting a merge template!). The en.wp interwiki link for it:Amaro (liquore) is, understandably, Amaro (liqueur). 86.151.103.141 (talk) 22:36, 16 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

Bitter is a very dry and very bitter kind of aperitif, whose most popular brand is Campari of Milan

Very dry? One page lists Campari's sugar as 250.0 g/l, so it is far from dry. 193.64.36.165 (talk) 16:25, 24 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Indeed this article is somewhat problematic in that it confuses bitter liqueurs (amari) with cocktail bitters, the primary difference being that bitter liqueurs are intended to be used as beverages, while cocktail bitters are non-beverages intended to be used only as flavor enhancers.Vapeur (talk) 20:29, 24 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Is "bitters":

• singular? "A bitters is an alcoholic beverage"
• plural? "Bitters are prepared by infusion or distillation"
• a mass noun? "Angostura bitters was first compounded"

A quick look on OneLook reveals conflicting views on this. Still, ISTM we ought to tidy things up here. But which view should we take? -- Smjg (talk) 00:50, 29 December 2010 (UTC)Reply

Good question. I'm inclined to call it plural (bitters), though in some cases it's a mass noun. Somehow treating "Angostura bitters" as a plural seems a little wrong perhaps because it's a commercial brand name, but I could live with "Angostura Bitters were ...." . --Mark Asread 03:47, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Is the whole phrase "Angostura Bitters" a trademark, or is "Angostura" by itself the trademark and "Angostura bitters" just a standard English expression for bitters made by the House of Angostura? (Another example of the latter: we talk of "Mars bars", but the trademarked name is simply "Mars".) -- Smjg (talk) 19:48, 3 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

Is Jägermeister a bitter? As I've seen, Alko classifies it as "herb liqueur", not bitter. It might be wrong, though. 82.141.126.28 (talk) 01:24, 8 May 2014 (UTC)Reply

You are absolutely correct that Jägermeister isn't a bitter in the same sense of cocktail bitters, but it is an old Kräuterlikör (herbal liquor) with bitter herbal content (disguised by sugar), originally advertised as a digestive, much like Becherovka. Amaros, traditional herbal liqueurs (like Jägermeister and Becherovka), and cocktail bitters share a common history as herbal medicines that were advertised to aid digestion and/or treat/prevent illness, which why is the relevance of longstanding products like Jägermeister are explained in the article.Vapeur (talk) 15:56, 8 May 2014 (UTC)Reply

Jägermeister is the only one in the section "Digestive bitters" that I recognize as a liqueur. Though Campari and Unicum articles describe them both as liqueur and bitter, but I (and Alko) have always considered those being bitters. 82.141.126.28 (talk) 01:41, 3 June 2014 (UTC)Reply

Just keep in mind that "Liqueur" is a legally defined term that includes anything containing at least 100g/L sugar in the EU, and only 25g/L sugar in the USA. Anything that meets this objective qualification is legally defined as a liqueur, regardless of the taste. This is why Jägermeister, Campari, and Unicum are all liqueurs as per the legal definition. Some taste more bitter than others, but this is subjective.Vapeur (talk) 03:28, 3 June 2014 (UTC)Reply

I reviewed the Torani article and see no mention of Bitters, herbal preparation or digestif properties or uses. Are Torani Syrups just flavorings, or are they considered Bitters? Do other soda syrups fit into this category? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.183.52.35 (talk) 16:25, 20 February 2015 (UTC)Reply

Your observation is accurate. There is nothing in the Torani catalog that is presented as bitters of any kind, and as such, I have removed that entry from the article.Vapeur (talk) 12:54, 21 February 2015 (UTC)Reply

To answer a recent question, many cocktail bitters are approved as Non-beverages in jurisdictions where such status is available. Simply put, this means a product is not treated as an alcoholic beverage, as it is not purchased for its alcohol content and not consumed like a beverage. This generally allows the product to be excluded from excise taxes normally applied to alcoholic beverages. It also means there are no selling/purchasing restrictions as with alcoholic beverages. Basically, bitters classified as Non-beverages are legally regulated as food products. Another example of a Non-Beverage are commercial vanilla extracts sold in grocery stores, which often contain around 45% alcohol by volume.Vapeur (talk) 02:29, 24 November 2015 (UTC)Reply

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Here are my observations on what is a really confusing and overlapping area of alcoholic beverages.

- Aperitifs and digestifs would not find a mention if a classification table of alcoholic beverages is drawn up. These would at best describe the property of certain alcoholic beverages. While aperitifs are a group of beverages that culls alcoholic beverages from the world of wines (eg fino sherry, mistelles, vermouths and other aromatized wines) to spirit based drinks such as Campari, Digestifs too cuts through the gamut f alcoholic drinks with the likes of several liqueurs, oloroso style sherries, grappa and eaux-de-vie de fruits. - many articles on liqueurs and cordials make readers perceive them to be sweet in character (esp after quoting minimum sugar requirements in EU and US) to label them liqueurs) but the bitter liqueurs are sidelined or not discussed or weaned away as other spirits. Yet, Jägermeister, Calisaya and Campari are liqueurs for sure. The Campari label says so too about itself! - many of the beverages listed under DIGESTIF BITTERS in this article are in the real world APERITIFS such as Campari, Cynar and Aperol. - Unicum is drunk both as an aperitif and as a digetsif - All digestifs, though post prandial beverages are not bitter. Aniseed liqueurs like anisette are not - All liqueurs are not digestif in nature - The terms bitters is vague and often construed as spirit bitters i.e spirit based liqueurs (if minimum sugar content is complied with - something we would never know about each spirit bitter discussed)only. How about the world of non-vermouth aromatised wines quinaquinas (chinchona) and americanos (gentian) are all (wine based) bitters, but not liqueurs as they are not spirit based, right? Even this article lists quinaquinas (and americanos as a subset - see hyperlink) as bitters. Happy about that but it is listed under digestive bitters - not happy about THAT! - and finally Pastis and Ouzo are liqueurs but are sureshot aperitifs!

WHAT A MESS!

Can someone corroborate the above facts and try to sort them out for me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Perfection161 (talk • contribs) 13:16, 25 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

Bitters have a functional use. Kegs of beer may not have fully undergone secondary fermentation and thus still have active yeast in them. There is a particular taste to this beer. Bitters have such an alcohol content that they kill the remaining active yeast thus prevent digestion upset. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ItsACityOfApes (talk • contribs) 18:57, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply