Talk:Belvoir Castle

Looks like this was a work in progress over some time, so both 1818 and 1929 could be correct...

25. Neale, John Preston, 1780-1847.

Views of the seats of noblemen and gentlemen, in England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland. From drawings, by J. P. Neale ...

London, Sherwood, Neely, and Jones [etc.] 1818-23.

6 v. mounted fronts., mounted plates 30 x 24 cm.

DA660 .N34

26. Neale, John Preston, 1780-1847.

Views of the seats of noblemen and gentlemen, in England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland. By J. P. Neale. 2d series

London, Sherwood, Jones and Co. [etc.] 1824-29.

5 v. mounted fronts., illus., mounted plates. 24 cm.

DA660 .N36

(from University of Florida English Dept's Rare Books Collection)

And shouldn't we be quoting the full title, and crediting the artist, John Preston Neale, rather than the publisher?

The claim that "Belvoir has been ancestral home of the Duke and Duchess of Rutland for over one thousand years." has been restored to this page, even though it is plainly untrue. There were very few castles in England before 1066, and there is no evidence that Belvoir was one of them. The place hasn't even existed for over one thousand years.

The Manor of Belvoir was granted to Robert de Ros by Henry III in 1258. The family of the current dukes of Rutland, the Manners family, acquired it by marriage in 1508. They were created dukes of Rutland in 1703.

Belvoir has been a private manor for 750 years. It has belonged to the family of the current Duke of Rutland for five hundred years. It has been the seat of the dukes of Rutland for three hundred years. The "thousand year" claim which appears on the Belvoir Castle visitor website is untrue, and in fact impossible.

And by the way: deleting previous discussion of this point was most unhelpful.

Agemegos (talk) 07:01, 13 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

In the into paragraph and the paragraph entitled "Modern Day Usage" have contradictory definitions on how to pronounce the name of the castle.

Belvoir Castle (pronounced Beaver)

The castle is often wrongly referred to as Beaver Castle or Beever Castle[2], rather than Belvoir Castle which is French for "beautiful view".

I appreciate your confusion. It is not well explained. The place is correctly spelt Belvoir Castle, but for hundreds of years the traditional British pronunciation of the word sounds like "Beaver", wherever it occurs in the UK and Northern Ireland. But regardless how it is pronounced, it should not however be WRITTEN as Beaver or Beever (as it is in the reference quoted for example). 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 00:04, 29 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

My Great Grandfather Richard Albert Gibson and other brothers came to Canada between the 1840's and 1860's. And when Richard Albert Gibson located in Middlesex township, be bought an estate in Deleware Ontario (just 15 miles West, from London) It is thought to be the oldest Farm in South Western Ontario. Richard named the farm "Belvoir" after the place of his birth (Belvoir Castle England). That home and farm passed on to other relatives ; Sidney Little, The Mayor of London Ont. There her entertained guests from the Canadian Parliament. One guest I recall was Prime Minister MacKenzie King. Belvoir Farm has been in several hands since, but part of it's history has the claim that it was built and designed by an architect that went on to design and build the East wing of the Parliament buildings in Ottawa Ontario Canada. Rather interesting from the perspective of historical records. Our Family still have some monogramed pieces that were presented to Richard on his leaving Belvoir -one date is 1846 (I think) presented by Friends. There is some affiliation with the breeding of the hounds for the fox hunts, that predominated the Gentry of Europe at earlier times. Richard Albert brought his knowledge with him about Dog breeding to Canada and started the Canadian Kennel Club, where he remained as President for a period of time. His portrait is hanging in the Chicago Hall of Fame (Agricultural Devision) next to the portrait of his son H. Noel Gibson Esq.. And that is as I know it Robert A. R. Gibson B.C. Canada —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.155.212.173 (talk) 17:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

Interesting. However, has the British pronunciation of "Beaver" been retained in Canada?...or does the French language influence in Canada come into play, producing "Bell-voire"? 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 14:47, 29 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

This may sound off-topic, but, in a recent debate on the first reading of a private member's bill regarding succession to peerages, a British MP specifically mentioned Belvoir Castle as an example of a estate that is entailed to the duke's first-born son and heir at expense of his sisters and younger brother. I was under the impression, however, that fee tails had been abolished in British law and, accordingly, if the estate is held in fee simple, the duke can leave it (or parts thereof) to whoever he designates in his will. Can anyone who is more knowledgeable please clarify this matter ? Of course, if an entail really exists, I believe it is worth mentioning in the article.

BTW, the link to the Commons debate that mentions the duke's estate in the context above is

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmhansrd/cm130325/debtext/130325-0001.htm#13032510000003

Signed 161.24.19.112 (talk) 21:13, 30 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

For the law, I'm 50/50 about it. My first instinct was that I believed the law was made so that it only referred to newly created entails -former ones still stand. But then I remember somewhere in the back of my mind a few cases of entails being broken after that law was created.
Either way... Can I suggest a slightly different version of what may have happened at Belvoir?
I believe Belvoir Castle, as many other Stately homes (Chatsworth House for example) is no longer "owned" by the family who live in it. I believe it is officially a trust and run as a charity. Part of the mandate for that trust and charity would be to maintain the connection to the family by maintaining the castle as home for the Duke and for future Dukes. As Dukedomes are always inherited by the eldest son (never daughters), a charitable trust would have the same effect as an entail -the effect you mention where by sisters and younger brothers do not inherit. The obvious benefit is that it saves on inheritance tax/death duties; a tax which has spelled the end to many a stately home. --Rushton2010 (talk) 22:41, 30 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

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It was argued that this one gets more hits (I guess on Wikipedia), and that the Hospitaller castle in Israel has been moved on Wikipedia to "Belvoir Fortress", probably to accommodate the English castle's article. I accept neither of these arguments. The discussion is here, at the bottom of my talk-page. Maybe I should copy my arguments here, I don't know. But that's not the point. The article about the Crusader castle, that is indeed in ruins as Johnbod has now specified in the tag at the top of the English castle's article, has now been moved back to "Belvoir Castle", with the addition "(Israel)". Don't you think this one should be symmetrically called "Belvoir Castle (England)"? Arminden (talk) 23:40, 18 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

No, it gets x15 more views, so is clearly primary. And if it were to be moved, after a proper WP:RM, it would NOT be to "Belvoir Castle (England)" - this is the kind of thing you find out when you expose your strongly-held personal views to the comments of other editors. Johnbod (talk) 03:42, 19 September 2020 (UTC)Reply