Talk:Multiverse (DC Comics)/Archive 1

I am no DC expert, but it seems that this page should include something about Bizarro World. Eje211 16:04, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

It's my understanding that Bizarro world was a planet in the same universe as Earth-One, not an alterate version of Earth in the Multiverse. Tverbeek 16:48, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Bizarro's world, Htrae (Earth spelled backwards) was indeed in the same universe as Earth-One, and orbited Sol from the opposite side of the solar system. A separate entry would be more appropriate. Regards Netkinetic 19:37, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

The Bizarro Earth may have appeared in the sky during IC #5 due to the post-COIE Earth taking the role of Earth 1. User:driscolj

The Biczarro Htrae is now Earth-0. Chris Griswold 19:29, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Would Fox's and the SciFi Channels Sliders count as a representation of the multiverse in other media?

It's a representation of a multiverse, but it's not clearly based on DC's. Tverbeek 12:03, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

John Wells gave a list of Earth-32 (his name for Earth-32 stories) in the Crisis Compendium found with the absolute edition. He gave many other lists as well.

User:Netkinetic and others... slow down!! The pages of IC#4 are barely dry, and we knoe nothing at all about this Earth-Two. Ths page, a general explanation of the Earths of the old DC multiverse, should not be changed weekly/monthly to update thiese current events until we have a grasp of what's going on. Dyslexic agnostic 16:21, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

That is true, the ramifications of this mini series are still unknown. Regarding the distinct nature of the Earth's, Kal-L specifically mentioned in IC#2 that ClutterEarth used Earth-One as a template. When Earth-Two was created, as specifically stated due to the realignment of the centre of the universe, all Earth-Two related characters were shifted off world. This fact is not in dispute. As such, now stating that Mr Terrific and Doctor Mid-Nite are distinct to Earth-Two is questionable. I agree let's wait and see what happens.

Really, Doctor Fate also is not "distinct" as an older pre-Crisis issue of Superboy Superboy #25 1982 had him battle "Doctor Chaos" with his own full-face helmet, and opposite colour scheme and similar origins. As such, I'll remove Doctor Fate as a distinct Earth-Two character as this isn't accurate pre-Crisis (just as Aquaman was no longer distinctly Earth-One related as his counterpart was shown prior to Crisis). Regards Netkinetic 19:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Doctor Chaos made a single appearance and he is not called Doctor Fate. Still you insist in adding him as a Fate's counterpart which he is not. The comment you're using as a source is from a reader, not from DC Comics. This is obvious speculation. 201.17.109.212 18:46, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

It is a researched source outside of Wikipedia, that is the criteria necessary for reference, not whether it is "publisher" approved or not. I would strongly recommend you register 201.17.109.212 so that we can address you in person. Netkinetic 23:59, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

It is a researched source based on a comment from a reader just as you and me. It says there: "Comments". Whose comments are those? ;) Anon, so what? 14:59, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Lesfer, it is a reference nonetheless. A commentary external from Wikipedia. We can debate semantics. DC wouldn't have published an issue of a mainstream character like Superboy featuring a character with the same origin, powers and costume (with colours inversed) as simply a "throwaway reference". It deserves inclusion even if for a single issue. Netkinetic 04:36, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I've never denied to be a reference. It is a reference for sure. Is Dr. Chaos based on Dr. fate? Sure! Is Dr. Chaos the Earth-One version of Dr. Fate? No, he is not. 201.17.89.78 18:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

If there's a disagreement about whether ____ from Earth-___ is unique or not, then the simplest solution is not to mention them. I'm sure there are a bunch of throw-away stories out there about so-and-so's analog on Earth-whatever, and we can split metaphysical hairs over whether characters with matching or mis-matched civilian/superhero names are really analogs of each other. But the point of this article is not to show off how big your co... comics collection is, but to outline some examples of who lived on which Earth. Tverbeek 03:08, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree with the above comment. That these "one off" events cause such a stir in comparison with the larger stories is counterproductive and confusing. Dyslexic agnostic 23:03, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment gentlemen. I was attempting to remove the fictional character in question, yet the individual from the Brazilian IP address continues to include the character in question. This character WAS a distinct character UNTIL Adventures of Superboy #25. Same costume with inversed colour scheme, same origin, same powers. However, to illustrate this point, I've added Power Girl as "distinct" and "unique" and see if consensus deems that she is unique to Supergirl, as they have separate names which is the criteria according to 201.17.109.212. If she isn't, than neither is Doctor Fate. I simply want consistency. Netkinetic 23:57, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

And I simply want you to stop disrupting this article to illustrate a point. Tverbeek 02:40, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Sir, please Assume good faith. How is removing one item which is documented to be factually incorrect "disruptive"? Your pejorative comment "how big your co...comics" is distasteful and inappropriate in its inference, and is in itself a disruption. Please use proper decorum rather than a confrontational approach. Netkinetic 02:50, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

In what comic issue, exactly, is it said that Breach was from "Earth-Eight?" Was it in his own series? An Infinite Crisis tie-in? I've never heard of it.--Filby 02:41, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Infinite Crisis #5 ... --AjaxSerix (Im not logged in)

The Marvel Earths that do not relate to the specific topic of this article should be removed. Only 616 should remain. Chris Griswold 19:23, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I concur with the above. Netkinetic 15:18, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Only a few characters were mentioned as being from Earth-Eight. Only Breach, Kyle Rayner, Helena Bertinelli, and Jason Rusch are named. This article is assuming the rest, as well as the purpose of that Earth. If this is not the case, please cite the source of this information. Chris Griswold 19:38, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Chris, I have added a reference to an interview with Geoff Johns, creator of the concept of "Earth-Eight" as to it explanation of which character theoretically would reside on this proposed Earth. Netkinetic 15:17, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I have been in love with the idea of Earth-Eight since I read about it last month. Those are some of my favorite characters. Chris Griswold 23:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

How has it been established that descendants of Earth-One and -Two are not on Earth-Eight? Chris Griswold 23:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps estabished was a poor choice of wording. I apologize. But the argument can be made thusly: if the Earth-One and Earth-Two characters didn't exist on Earth-Eight (which would imply the taking of the mantle in their worlds), there would not have been the progenitors of those descendents. I guess someone's just going to have to sling an e-mail to Johns to clear this up for good. Coyote42 23:41, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, pretty much as Coyote42 explains, it would be a needless duplication. Of course, that never stopped DC before, but it seems they have some type of agenda of pigeonholing certain characters in certain "niche" Earths at least for this event. Netkinetic 23:43, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

But Bart presents an interesting quandry. Though it can be argued that his creation in the '90s counts as a bit of a retcon, something that would be shifted to "Earth-8" status, Iris was already established as pregnant just before the Crisis hit, and produce the twins, of whom Don was Bart's father. So I'd say it's a coin flip for him. Coyote42 23:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I just don't understand the argument saying these characters could not be there. Even though Ted Knight is from Earth 2, there could be another from Earth-Eight who gave life to Jack Knight. And even if Ted weren't from Earth-Eight, there could still be a Jack Knight, though perhaps not in name. For instance, the Earth 2 Helena Wayne became the Post-Crisis Helena Bertinelli - same character, but different lineage and circumstances which allowed her to be the same character.

I just honestly don't know how you can say without a doubt that these characters can't exist there. You can make the argument, sure, but it's just supposition. The text has read that these characters could possibly exist there, not that they do. This reflects the supposition on the part of the fans/Wiki writers. Removing them does not reflect the supposition. Chris Griswold 18:16, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the important point to make is that we don't know who else would've shown up on Earth-Eight, so why assume one way or the other? At the risk of sounding snobbish, this is an encyclopedia; as Joe Friday would say, "just the facts." --Joe Sewell 16:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, so let's just remove all of the guesses, and leave the only known inhabitants: Jason Rusch, Helena Bertinelli, and Kyle Rayner. I have removed all speculation, while noting it as well. Chris Griswold 18:23, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that way is best for everyone. It eliminates arguments and the constant updating of the list, while still reflecting the possibility of either way for the characters. And you do make a good point, Chris. Sorry if I was sounding dismissive. Coyote42 19:23, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm late to the party, but I concur with the above. For consistency sake, let's leave it as the 4 established characters mentioned until further notice within Infinite Crisis or another DC publication. Sounds like a fair compromise. Netkinetic 23:43, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Wait, what speculation? There wasn't a name to the earth, and in that same article it mentions Earths in the Multiverse that have been coined by fans, which I'd believe would be more speculation than anything. I was just giving that earth a name, since none was given. Granted, there is nothing that says that world couldn't be tied to another named Earth, but given that the three "Icon" characters are shown, it could be reasonably assumed that it is another world. I would assume that it's an Elseworlds story that I hadn't read, so if someone would like to verify that; that's the response I was hoping for, not outright deletion. Coyote42 07:27, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

every known DC earth has been catalogued in Absolute Crisis on Infinite Earths Exvicious 16:06, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Correct, and that thread mentions the "Earth Aztec", though I think the garb looks more Mayan than Aztec. The speculation is that it's an homage to Alan Moore's aborted Twilight maxi-series in 1987. Coyote42 18:10, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, put in a comment on it that takes out the "speculation" that Lesfer seemed to have an issue with, and also re-inserted Earth-896 since it was shown and named in IC #6 Coyote42 18:21, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Coyote, I'll need to check out IC #6, haven't had a chance to yet. So it's 896 not 898 which I had edited out previously? Wonder why DC would set up another Earth for all their western heroes? JLA (1st series) had Hex, Scalphunter, Cinnamon, Bat Lash residing on Earth-One, and All-Star Squadron had Johnny Thunder (cowboy), Trigger Twins, Super-Chief and several others residing on Earth-Two. Theoretically it would be conceivable for their to be versions elsewhere though, I suppose. Netkinetic 18:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Ack, it IS 898. Typo-matic strikes again. And I dunno. IIRC, there was a "Western Heroes" Earth in the original Crisis. But then again, I've gotten my hands on ONE copy of the complete series, and that was a friends, so I was only able to read it that one time. Coyote42 19:17, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I can definitely see where you may have gotten that impression, however the scenes in question in COIE was actually flashing back to Earth-One's old west time period...the same thing occured in the prehistoric period with Anthrax (or whatever his name was) and in the 30th century with the Legion of Super-Heroes. Why the Crisis effected different time periods like that is beyond me aside from obtuse story telling by Wolfman, but it was set on Earth-One during those scenes. Netkinetic 19:37, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, put in a comment on it that takes out the "speculation" that Lesfer seemed to have an issue with, and also re-inserted Earth-896 since it was shown and named in IC #6 Coyote42 18:21, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, therefore there's no room for speculation. It's not about me having issues with something, but Wikipedia itself. I'm not the one who made the rules. Regards, —Lesfer ^(talk) 23:34, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't feel the current organization of this article works. The Tangent Comics Earth-97 is listed in two places, and now, for some reason, so is Marvel Earth-616. I don't think it is helpful to list the Earths by when they appeared (COIE, IC), but might be easier to look by number. If a reader comes to this article looking for information on an Earth, they will be looking for the number.

I think it might be helpful use a table to list the Earths by designation and then give a description and the first appearance issue.

I will be working on this within the next few days, unless others would like to discuss an alternative. Chris Griswold 02:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Chris, I completely agree, and would suggest that we use the same type of table I incorporated into the Multiverse (Marvel Comics) page from the now defunct Alternate Universe page which someone else had created. Perhaps for a compromise, we could incorporate an additional column not found on that table, stating whether this is a pre or post-Crisis Earth. I can work on this later on tonight if you all concur. Regards. Netkinetic 20:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

If you get it started, I will also work on it. I was thinking myself that there should be a column about which era that Earth is from: Pre-Crisis, COIE, Post-Crisis, Zero Hour?, Post-Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, and Post-Infinite? Chris Griswold 02:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Chris, yes I think that'll help streamline the page and be a handy reference. Netkinetic 21:58, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I heard all the DC earths are listed in Absolute Crisis on Infinite Earths. you might want to find someone who has a copy. --Exvicious 00:36, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

MY thoughts exactly. Chris Griswold 02:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Just created a table a couple hours ago in line with our dialogue above...thanks Chris for your editing the entries (I like "designation" and "era"...spot on!) and streamlining things further. Coyote, Exvicious, Joe, Lesfer, and others who've contributed previously...please feel free to expand and elaborate further with other pre and post Crisis Earths along with other relevant material. Netkinetic 04:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I am enjoying editing this alot right now. I am being careful, though, because I know others are editing right now too. Am enjoying the cooperation. Chris Griswold 06:09, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

good job with the table format. i don't think we need the pre/post crisis column because most are pre-crisis anyway. or instead of post and/or pre we just say silver, golden etc. and should the we mention the first time Earth-Two is called Earth-Two in addition to it's first appearance in Action #1?

I have Pre-Crisis, Crisis on Infinite Earths, Post-Crisis, Zero Hour?, Post-Zero Hour (Legion, for instance), Elseworlds, and Infinite Crisis. There may be more. Or less. Chris Griswold 06:09, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I think all those are valid era's to denote for each earth, however in regards to Legion references I'd reference the latest issue of Infinite Crisis explaining the reboot Legion prior to the current version as their own distinct earth in and of itself per Infinite Crisis. Netkinetic 06:17, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking era in terms of publication date. Chris Griswold 06:20, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

oh good. it just looked weird when you only had the pre-crisis ones. it looks better now Exvicious 17:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

An additional column for introduction of each Earth would be nice, but perhaps very debatable and controversial. FOr instance, was Earth-Two actually first shown in Action #1??? Some would say it was first shown during the Flash of Two Worlds tale in the 60's. What about Earth-B? And Earth-One...first appearence with Barry Allen's first opinion...or Martian Manhunter's? As to the pre and post-Crisis column, I do think it is necessary as some Earths were not evident previously and introduced afterwards, such as a revised Anti-Matter universe with its own "Earth-Three" along with the Milestone earth, to name but a few examples. Netkinetic 04:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, since you started the column, I've added to it and revised some of the first appearences. For example, Doc Occult (an Earth-Two hero preceding Superman) first appeared in New Fun in 1936. And the More Fun reference is Superboy's appearence, the first appearence of any Earth-One hero. However both of these are retcons and thus debatable, so I've also added the first issue wherein it is specifically stated that this or that Earth is "Earth-Such&Such". Does this work?Netkinetic 05:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I love it. I'm doing the best I can on some of these things. Chris Griswold 06:09, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Chris, I'm uncertain why certain first appearances such as Earth-X were removed from the table? Also, I think it would be helpful to have a retcon and actual tab on each to denote first published story of an earth through retroactive continuity as well as first published story actually describing a specific earth or giving it a label. Let me know your thoughts on this. Netkinetic 06:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Earth-X: accident. Our edits are overlapping and I missed adding that one in to mine. I think we may be crowding it a little with another tab. I like how you have it now, but am willing to try it. Chris Griswold 06:20, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Netkinetic: Do you want to handle Dates, issues, etc, and I will focus on formatting text/ inserting new Earths into the table? We should split up duties. Chris Griswold 06:24, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like a plan!!!! Of course, I'll need some proofing that the issues I locate are in fact the first issue appearances and such, so if you find more accurate references, just as Yellowjacket for Earth-Four, by all means tweak the table accordingly. Netkinetic 06:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I've added links to articles that already exist about different Earths. CovenantD 18:06, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Thx CovenantD, although the Earth-Prime article was simply a redirect to Superboy Prime, so that article doesn't presently stand the criteria to justify its existence, IMHO. That is a good idea you introduce, that we perhaps have individual articles relating to the individual Earths. Anyone up to the task??? NetK 19:08, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Were the IF introduced in 1964 or 1966? The Inferior Five entry says 1966. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChrisGriswold (talk • contribs)

Showcase # 62 (May 1966). —Lesfer ^(talk/mail) 18:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Absolute Crisis lists this earth as the one from JLA: The Nail, but IC#6 shows the western heroes. do you think one supercedes the other, or this western world will eventually evolve into the world of The Nail Exvicious 17:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, it could be the same one because The Nail Earth is the same as Post-Crisis Earth, up until the nail appears. And this could be a mistake. Do you have Absolute Crisis? --Chris Griswold 17:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

i just doing some iResearch. otherwise i would've just stuck it in the article. Exvicious 17:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Earth of the day using Absolute Crisis! --Exvicious 17:47, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Is it really called "Earth-W"?

I've never seen it named that way. --Chris Griswold 15:35, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

if it doesn't have an official name, it should probably go under "other earths." Exvicious 19:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps we could label it as Earth Wildstorm--it is referred to in its publication as being on "Earth" and the Captain Atom series currently states he is in an alternate dimension/universe, so it should be noted within the main table.Netkinetic 20:33, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

That's what i'd call it, but i don't think it's up to us to give that Earth a name. that's why i think it should be under "other earths." Exvicious 03:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

i think qward and earth-2 should be merged because it even mentions it's the same universe.Exvicious 19:34, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Trouble with this is that the Anti-Matter Earth came into existence post-Crisis not pre-Crisis, so how would we distinguish the two? Netkinetic 20:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The entries for Earth-2 and Earth-2/1 that both cite JLA:Earth-2 are confusing. Are they the same?CovenantD 22:50, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Earth-Two & Earth-2/1 is *not* the same earth. Earth-2 is the name Alexander Luthor (not to beconfused with Alexander Luthor Sr or Jr from Earth-Three) gave the Justice League's Earth.

Also, from my understanding of the situation, pre-crisis Qward was known, but the Earth of Qward was never shown. i think "Anti-Matter Earth" is a pretty accurate description. Earth-2/1 is very confusing. Exvicious 03:14, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Then I suggest removing the Earth-2/1 entry since it's the same as the post-Crisis Earth. CovenantD 03:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, Earth-2/1 is not the same as post-Crisis Earth...it is a brand new world that came into creations post-Crisis, while Qward existed pre-Crisis. Perhaps a notation in the Qward entry that the Anti-Matter Earth came into existence after Earth-Three was absorbed by the anti-matter wave. Seems logical that it phased that plane of existence into Qward's universe in much the same way that Earths 1/2/4/S/X were all blended together. Netkinetic 03:27, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow! it didn't even occur to me that's why the anti-matter Earth had the crime syndicate, and it makes so much sense! that's pretty cool. anyway, we should get rid of earth-2/1, and mention it's integration into the qward entry. Exvicious 03:40, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I've done just that. Of course, although my theory makes sense as to Earth-Three being incorporated into Qward, all the WP:NOR types will come out of the woodwork and nix that. Netkinetic 04:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

John Wells desginated these alternate Earths in the Crisis Compendium

Earth-86 86, 89, 91, 95, 96, 97, 116, 117, 124.1, 124.2, 132, 134, 136, 145, 148, 149, 153, 154, 159, 162, 166, 167, 170, 172, 175, 178, 183, 184, 192, 200, 215, 216, 224, 230, 238, 265, 270, Earth-11, Earth-15, Earth-19, Earth-20, Earth-23, 25, 26, 27, 32, 34, 36, 39, 40, 43, 47, 51, 54, 57, 61, 64, 72, 276, 295, 300, 300.6, 332, 353, 377, 383, 387, 388, 391, 395, 399, 404, 410, 417, 423, 494, 898, 901, 988, 1098, 1099, 1191, 1198, 1289, 1863, 1889, 1890, 1927, 1938, 2020, 3839, A, C-Plus, E-M, E-I [One], Earth-I [Immortal], Earth-R, Earth-Terra, Earth-X [One] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Enda80 (talk • contribs) .

Enda80, feel free to add other Earths listed from the Compendium in the main table if you'd like. Thx. Netkinetic 04:50, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The Earth-1 Superboy beat Uncle Sam since he time travelled to the 1920's of Earth-2. Come to think of it, the Starheart beat them both, since it came to Earth-2 from Earth-1 thousands if not more years ago. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Enda80 (talk • contribs) .

That is true and very appropriate considering Superboy inspired Kal-L, the first Superman and superhero in general. Netkinetic 04:48, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The joke newspaper the Onion did this story "Clinton goes back in time, teams up with Golden Age Clinton". ! Actually, only Wonder Woman and Superboy did that to my knowledge pre-Crisis.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39935/3 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Enda80 (talk • contribs) .

In an Answer Man letter column/DC Feature Page in Warlord#34, Bob Rozakis stated that the Warlord series took place on Earth-W. Since it is later intimated, if not outright stated, that Warlord took place on Earth-1 in Who's Who per the Atlantis entry, this may not hold. 'Enda80

Actually, in the Quality stories published after World War II (a few Quality features made it to the 1950's), the Allies won World War II. So these stories too place not on Earth-X, but an unnamed alternate Earth.