Talk:Multiverse (Marvel Cinematic Universe)

Some TV spots of the brief live-action Mrs Chen encounter in ATSV have listed the SSU as Earth-688. Obviously this is just referencing the unofficial Marvel Fandom designation of Earth-TRN688, but considering it’s now featured in an actual movie I’m wondering if we should update to reflect that. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 20:29, 27 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

No, such an information would belong in a hypothetical Multiverse (Spider-Verse) article, not here, as it isn't canon to the MCU. (By the way, this is not an invitation for editors to create that article.) InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:23, 30 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Coming back to this after I saw the movie they pretty much confirmed they are all connected. The movie designated it as Earth-688, and during Miguel’s exposition when he explained the tragedy all Spider-Men go through, Andrew and Tobey’s worlds are shown (already connected to the MCU). And the icing on top is Glover himself appearing in the film (in a live-action cameo) as the Prowler from the MCU. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 00:23, 2 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

It was not confirmed that that Prowler was from the MCU, stating such would be WP:SYNTH. That is archive footage of Maguire and Garfield's films, and only implies audiences to make a connection. The Spot visiting the universe Mrs. Chen (and by extension, Venom) is in does not need to be explained here, and would be better explained at Sony's Spider-Man Universe, which I am looking into incorporating. As noted in this article already, one of the directors of Across confirmed it was not intended to connect to the MCU, even with that line about Doctor Strange and Holland's Spider-Man, though it did use a display of the multiverse that was visually similar to that shown in Loki, although "pretty much" is not enough of a confirmation, and since Marvel Studios has yet to confirm or acknowledge that the Spider-Verse is connected, I'm not confident it should be included here at this time. I'm pretty sure once Beyond, Madame Web, and the fourth MCU Spidey film release, we'll have a closer understanding of what's going on and how these all may be connected, but we do not know this solidly yet. Trailblazer101 (talk) 08:25, 2 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

There is already a Marvel universe designated as Earth-688, and it's not the SSU HaydenTCEM (talk) 13:43, 29 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

That is within the Marvel Comics. The SSU does not subscribe to what the comics’ multiverse does. Trailblazer101 (talk) 14:30, 29 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

With ATSV creating some more confusion with the whole universe designations, I have a suggestion that could be beneficial to readers and also not rely on pure WP:SYNTH. I believe that the article should be expanded into a broader sense for the multiverse on the film side of things, so as to differentiate this from the comics (which we have at Multiverse (Marvel Comics). This might seem silly at first, but ultimately I think we should be able to group all of the films that have connections to the multiverse (the MCU, SSU and Spider-Verse films) where there is a strong enough link to it. I can break this down below into seperate categories for better understanding:

• MCU connections – These refer to the realities that are confirmed to be connected to each other through explicit references in movies. Naturally, this is essentially what we have right now in the Notable realities section, those being MCU’s 616 and 838 (confirmed via Multiverse of Madness), Peter-Two and Peter-Three’s realities (confirmed via No Way Home), the two significant What If realities, and the SSU (confirmed through that franchise’s LTBC and No Way Home) – and maybe give it the designation given to it in ATSV did of Earth-688 (using the same reason we gave MCU 616). While it is very likely the Foxverse(s) with the X-Men also fall into this with Deadpool 3 even bringing back Wolverine, we need to wait for an official synopsis or trailer/until that film drops to confirm and add that.
• Spider-Verse connections – This is the tricky one. Across made the explicit mention of the events of No Way Home despite being seemingly called as having no connections to the MCU. My suggestion to get around this while still creating continuity – and avoid what some fans have suggested which is that ATSV had its own version of the events of NWH occur on 199999 outside of the MCU multiverse, which by default is basically WP:FANCRUFT/WP:SYNTH – is treat as existing within the broader film multiverse, but explicitly state that the events have not been referenced or referred to within the MCU, and have no other connections to that franchise and may never be referenced there (with maybe a notable exception for Andrew and Tobey’s worlds given their archive footage was used in the film). This will be where we can state in sections similar to the notable realities in the current revision - Earth-65, Earth-1610, Earth-928, Earth-616B (it was confirmed in the movie it was labeled as this), Mumbattan and maybe Earth-42 given the twist ending. In a seperate section we can just quickly state some of the other Spider-Men that got attention, such as Insomniac Games’s Spider-Man, Spectacular Spider-Man and the other Spider-Men we saw in the first film (Noir, Porker, etc) without going into detail but at least stating the designations.

The whole point of this is so we have all the proven multiverse connections in Marvel films under one umbrella similar to how we have Marvel Comics, and hopefully make some sense to readers, rather then excluding stuff because of companies having different ways their designations and stuff work. Will it be a bit messy? Maybe, but I can try to make it make sense as best as I can, and I’m going to be starting up a draft in my userspace to organize this all out. The finished product there will be what I present and hopefully make some users who will probably be against this - just based on the wording in this proposal - perhaps feel a bit more comfortable. That will take a few days though to set up. Here’s to maybe a better organized multiverse page? MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 05:22, 3 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

In all honesty, it is not uncommon for films to reference events in other films when part of the same brand. The creatives of Across said that line was a meta joke and not something that should probably be taken too seriously. While I am not opposed to potentially better conveying the different realities/dimensions/universes, etc. for readers, I am not sure we have enough grounds and information to establish a whole section dedicated to the Spider-Verse universes based solely on this throwaway line reference. None of the other universes in the Spider-Verse films should be noted or discussed here as they are not in direct correlation to the MCU, those would be for a potential Spider-Verse Multiverse article or for a potential Spider-Verse franchise article, but not here. For now, those can be handled and explained at the comics Multiverse article. I am not sure what more we can include on the Across reference here that we don't already have. I'm also not sure if the Molina bit is actually necessary given the version in Across appeared to with a comics design and not necessarily a multiversal connection/crossover. I am open to what other editors think on this, although I think it is too soon to make this call, jumping the gun a bit, and could be misleading to readers as to what is actually in the MCU multiverse. Trailblazer101 (talk) 05:49, 3 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

I see the point about the throwaway line, however in the context of the conversation that it actually occurs in, with the way Miguel is explaining how some villains got sent to the wrong dimensions because of the events of ITSV, the segway into the NWH reference, meta or not fits the conversation and thus has a bit more weight to it. Also, even though it was only archive footage of Tobey and Andrew from the Raimi and Webb films respectively, the fact it was even shown implies that they are part of the spiderverse. And because it’s been proven Tobey and Andrew’s worlds are connected to the MCU, it gives further credence that the spiderverse realities exist in the same multiverse as the realities we’ve seen in the MCU - they just have not had any impact or references in the MCU and thus aren’t canon to the MCU. To clarify, what I mean is that in the scope of the Marvel film multiverse, the realities shown in the MCU are canon to the MCU, the spiderverse realities are not unless they get referenced by the MCU itself in a future film there (unlikely), but still exist under the same general umbrella of the multiverse as those shown in the MCU. Does that make a bit more sense? Also, in regards to your last comment the page name would be something like "Multiverse (Marvel films setting)" or something like that to make it clearer. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 06:18, 3 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Just because the use of archive footage "implies" it is in the Spider-Verse does not automatically mean it ought to be mentioned here, as this is strictly for the MCU multiverse, and not just a Marvel films multiverse. I do not think such an article dedicated to those needs to be separate from the comics multiverse article, though it should not be constructed within this one. The only mentions of the SV should remain "In other media", which should be just the mention of the throwaway line and maybe the archive footage, though I don't think the latter should be included. We can not connect the dots from the film to justify including universes not part of the MCU here via "it gives further credence that the spiderverse realities exist in the same multiverse as the realities we've seen in the MCU" is not confirmed by Marvel Studios and no sources confirm this without speculating just as is being done here; that is still the definition of WP:SYNTH. Sony does not dictate what is in the MCU multiverse via a film with no Marvel Studios involvement. Trailblazer101 (talk) 16:13, 3 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

I understand your concern, but then what about the SSU being shown in the film? Dismissing it as an alternate reality to the real SSU (which was explicitly connected to the MCU in LTBC and NWH) is also WP:SYNTH. Also, it was even confirmed by Lord and Miller themselves last year that their intent is to connect the Spider-Verse films with the MCU, which this movie lays the groundwork for and gives some pretty strong evidence to it. I think our readers should be able to be given the descriptions of these films while also making clear that their connection to the MCU has not yet been solidified but evidence points that way. Leaving it the way it is now would just create unnecessary confusion for those reading who’ve seen the film and are curious about the connection to the MCU. The spiderverse realities cannot be in the comics page because they directly contradict the designations given. Given that it seems like a much better idea to merge these under a film multiverse page, because the evidence is there and (again) the writers themselves have stated that is their intention. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 18:21, 3 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

The SSU being shown in Across the Spider-Verse can be mentioned at the SSU article. We don't connect the dots and say because the SSU connected to the MCU and was also then shown in Across that it is connected to the MCU as a result. We still need a source to state that the Spider-Verse is within the MCU multiverse, or else we would be falling under SYNTH. I am not saying these won't be connected or that they are not, we just need to be careful with how and where we present the information and with adequate confirmation. I have seen some sources express uncertainty on how clear these connections are, while others make assumptions (such as saying Glover's Prowler in Across is from the MCU, as an example of what not to state). "I think our readers should be able to be given the descriptions of these films while also making clear that their connection to the MCU has not yet been solidified but evidence points that way." If a connection to the MCU is not solidly confirmed, we can not state or imply this in this article. I fail to see how including that would not just be putting it up to our readers to make an assumption given it would be including a non-MCU multiverse thing in the MCU multiverse article.

"The spiderverse realities cannot be in the comics page because they directly contradict the designations given." How so? Is there a specific consensus on the comics Multiverse article forbidding adaptational pieces to be noted. Also, we can just explain the Spider-Verse multiverse stuff at Spider-Man in film#Animated Spider-Verse. "Given that it seems like a much better idea to merge these under a film multiverse page, because the evidence is there and (again) the writers themselves have stated that is their intention." No no no, we should not be merging all the multiverse film contents into one article. This is for the MCU multiverse only, with Venom being the only confirmed SSU character to appear in the MCU. Mrs. Chen did not appear in the MCU as there was no direct connection between her interaction with the Spot and with the MCU. The creatives at Sony have made parts of their intentions to connect these three together known, which is noted at the SSU article. Until we actually have an official connection between the MCU and the Spider-Verse, the SV should not be linked to the MCU multiverse here. WP:CRYSTAL falls into play for that. You have acknowledged yourself "that their connection to the MCU has not yet been solidified but evidence points that way.", which is not definitive 100% and we still need proper reliable sourcing from the Marvel Studios side of things on what is in the MCU multiverse. "Leaving it the way it is now would just create unnecessary confusion for those reading who’ve seen the film and are curious about the connection to the MCU." The only connection the Spider-Verse has to the MCU on a technicality is Mrs. Chen, who appeared in Across in the same universe as Venom, who appeared in NWH, plus the Garfield and Maguire archives, who appeared in NWH, but connecting the dots for those would still be SYNTH as no directly apparent connection to the MCU was made in Across or confirmed, ie showing Holland's Spidey in Across. Point being, there is nothing clear connecting the Spider-Verse to the MCU, and there should not be a separate Marvel film multiverse article as it is too soon for that to be made and would be made from connecting the dots, which we can't do Trailblazer101 (talk) 19:16, 3 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Except it seems there is something connecting them together which is the live-action cameo by Donald Glover as the Prowler. Now before you dismiss it as “not the same from the MCU”, it was explicitly shown in Homecoming when Peter was analyzing Aaron Davis that explicitly states his nickname is “the Prowler”. Additionally, multiple outlets have been treating it as the same person. And the connecting the dots thing on this falls apart, on the Spectacular Spider-Man series article it makes note of the “canon” event of George Stacy dying sometime after the events of the second season - why not use that same logic here? Both have explicit references back to the series or franchise they came from. Plus, the NWH reference/joke in-movie means that Homecoming already occurred in the past so it can’t be some alternate version of the MCU. News outlets basically say the Glover cameo is Sony’s way of referring to Glover’s Aaron Davis. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 02:35, 4 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Glover never had the Prowler costume in the MCU, and sources are speculating on if that's the same version as in the MCU, and has not been confirmed to be such. Just because these outlets connect the dots does not mean it is necessarily true or official. Trailblazer101 (talk) 05:20, 4 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Again, this page is about the multiverse within the MCU, not the multiverse in the Spider-Verse franchise nor the Spider-Man multiverse Sony is clearly and desparately trying to build ($$$). As Trail noted, while we may briefly discuss these Easter eggs/references in the In other media section, it shouldn't affect the rest of the article as the Spider-Verse, SSU, Tobey, and Andrew films are not canon to the MCU. You'll notice that § Peter-Two's reality and § Peter-Three's reality only discuss what is explictly shown and said in No Way Home, and not any plot information from non-MCU films, because we cannot affirmatively say that the events of those films happened to the characters we saw in No Way Home. Similarly, we cannot conclude that the events of the MCU, SSU, Tobey, and Andrew films are canon to the Spider-Verse franchise unless the creatives and/or studio say so (WP:OR).

As I mentioned earlier, Sony has been trying to build this massive Spider-Man multiverse for years, which I suspect Marvel Studios (relucantly) agreed to when they renewed their deal. I don't know if this multiverse/franchise/concept should have its own article one day, but if all we're operating with right now is Easter eggs and references, a hypothetical article would be a WP:FANCRUFTy creation that should promptly be taken to AfD. If we're just talking about article dedicated solely to the multiverse seen in the Spider-Verse franchise, that I also feel would be too FANCRUFTy and premature at this moment — we don't even have a Miles Morales article yet! But of course, you are free to start drafting in draftspace. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:03, 4 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Actually, we already do have such an article about the alleged mega-multiverse: Spider-Man in film. We could perhaps add a section detailing Sony's attempts to connect the various Spider-Man franchises and brand them as part of the same multiverse. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:17, 4 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Agreed. I did suggest the same approach, which I think is the best course of action at this time. Trailblazer101 (talk) 05:20, 4 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Coming back a while later, apparently according to Alex P. from The Cosmic Circus, who’s basically the same as Jeff Sneider in terms of inside reporting and has gotten things right before, the Donald Glover cameo is the same Prowler from the MCU. Of course this is from inside reporting and not an official confirmation, but I wonder how we can use this. Funnily enough he did say Sony and Marvel were in collaboration about the multiverse similar to how trailblazer mentioned it about them begrudging accepting it in an earlier response. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 19:04, 5 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

The Cosmic Circus is considered an unreliable source, despite them getting some things right, given how they also discuss speculation and rumors, and not entirely the same as Sneider. There are a lot of little bits in that source and throughout the CC site that could pan out, although nothing concrete to go off of in terms of this for now. If someone from Marvel Studios or Pascal comment on it, that would warrant some form of inclusion, though not necessarily at this article depending on the notion of it. It is still the early days of the film's release, so I would expect more press questions to divulge on spoiler-y plot details and multiverse specifications to come out in the next few weeks, or even months as it nears closer to home video. Trailblazer101 (talk) 19:20, 5 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Miller essentially admits the Glover cameo is the same from MCU in a recent Rolling Stone interview. Specifically "We never even considered doing an animated version of Donald Glover. That wasn’t true to the universe that his character came from." I think that’s enough proof to say that it’s the same from the MCU since the producers have more-or-less confirmed it. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 15:50, 6 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

That doesn't read to me as them confirming this version is from the MCU, given nowhere in the interview do they explicitly say such. We can't just paraphrase that as a definitive confirmation as it is ambiguous. Trailblazer101 (talk) 16:02, 6 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

I might be beating a dead horse, but one of the artisits behind the design/concept art for Donald Glover’s LA Prowler seems to have spoiled that it was indeed the MCU Prowler, as shown at the bottom with the tag saying “MCU Prowler”. I’m not sure if this changes anything but this makes the ATSV worlds as part of the larger MCU multiverse position stronger. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 17:25, 5 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

Concept art does not always translate every detail into the finished product, and is almost as unreliable as merchandise such as toys. It does not confirm anything other than that was a concept they explored. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:02, 6 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Trailblazer101: The designations of 96283 and 120703 should be exceptions because since we are likely not going to see them again until (possibly) Beyond in 2025/26 Secret Wars in 2027/28, we aren’t likely to see an in-film confirmation. But given that they’re widely known as such and even Marvel.com itself mentions Raimi-verse as Earth-96283 in a 2020 post and not stuff from the marvel fandom wiki. And the official script gives them the name Raimi-verse and Webb-verse. This is almost the same things used to justify mentioning the 688 designation for SSU since ATSV designated it that. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 06:32, 9 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Marvel.com is referring to the Official Handbook, and is not affiliated with Marvel Studios given the divide between Studios and the defunct Marvel Entertainment. A 2020 source from before NWH's release is premature. The potential likelihood of if those universes appear again is not relevant here as we go by what is factually known. I for one did not know of these designations prior to NWH, so I would not say them being "widely known" is a good rationale. I am not doubting their official usage by the Handbook, although I will stress that they have not been used or recognized by Marvel Studios, Sony, or the creatives of NWH, and we know what the Handbook uses can differ for Marvel Studios (ie 199999 vs 616). We can definitely mention the universe names as given in the script, although, as this article is specifically about the MCU multiverse, we should go by what is used in terms of that. We do not mention Earth-688 here, nor at the main MCU article or the MCU films list but solely at the SSU article and I believe at Across, for that reason (plus SSU and Across are both Sony-owned and controlled properties). Marvel Studios and Sony collectively dictate the MCU Spidey films content, and none of them have used those universe designations from what we are aware of. If a source confirms they do, then we can add it, although, the current sourcing is not a confirmation of its usage here by simply stating what the Handbook uses and I don't think an exception should be made for this as no source concretely backs it up. We cannot automatically assume that because they are the same universes that the same universe designation from the Marvel Comics side of things is used for the Marvel Studios films. That would be WP:SYNTHESIS. Trailblazer101 (talk) 18:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

I don't think the person who made the page notice understands what a multiverse is. The MCU should be regarded as a "mini-multiverse," with Earth-199999 as its primary timeline/continuity, not unlike how the "DCAU" is a mini multiverse with Earth 12 as its primary continuity. To refer to the MCU as if it is a reboot of all Marvel media is completely absurd. Bringing up the fact that the Prime Marvel Universe and Spider-verse films aren't canon to the MCU is absurd too. Because OBVIOUSLY that's how canon works. If something takes place in some universes but not one in particular, it's not canon. I think we need to rethink how we go about this and just stick to the handbook designation because it was first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HaydenTCEM (talk • contribs) 13:27, 24 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Whenever "Earth-616" is invoked in the article, it is being discussed from an in-universe perspective, such as in the quasi–plot summaries. This is because within the MCU, its denizens use "Earth-616" and not "Earth-199999". For the parts of the article written from a real-world perspective, we clearly state what Marvel Comics, Marvel Studios, and Sony Pictures Animation call the MCU. InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:21, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

The MCU's denizens do not call it 616. Only the Baxter Foundation of Earth-838 calls it that. HaydenTCEM (talk) 17:33, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

What? Feige and other Marvel Studios execs have called it 616 while others use 199999. Both are reflected accurately in this article. Trailblazer101 (talk) 18:06, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Addendum: within the MCU's realm of canonicity, the MCU does not share the same multiverse with Marvel Comics and Spider-Verse — because the films have never acknowledged that being the case. On the other hand, Marvel Comics has clearly established that its multiverse includes the MCU, as have the Spider-Verse films. It doesn't go both ways until Marvel Studios says otherwise. Similarly, we have no evidence the events of Tobey and Andrew's films occurred in the MCU multiverse; as far as we know, they're brand new characters who happen to be played by familiar faces (read: fan service), just like Professor X in Multiverse of Madness and Keaton/Clooney in The Flash. InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:26, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Except NWH made it crystal clear that it is the same worlds from Tobey and Andrew’s films, they make numerous references to those films and even give hints as to what happened after we last saw them pre-NWH. Also Professor X in MoM is from 838 and nothing suggested that it’s the Foxverse. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 07:36, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

OR. Batman and Joker in Lego Batman also reference events from previous live-action movies; the Pizza Planet truck is in every Pixar film; G.I. Joe shows up in the latest Transformers; and of course, there's the infamous Fietro incident. Easter eggs and fan service that reference other films are not uncommon, but we cannot jump to conclusions. Remember that even Alien vs. Predator has been declared non-canon to the Alien films. InfiniteNexus (talk) 15:53, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Dude stop embarrassing yourself. Across the Spider-Verse features characters from the Comic Multiverse and it's been explicitly confirmed that Tobey and Andrew's Spideys in NWH are the same ones from their respective film franchises. Your input is useless and I suggest you leave this talk page. HaydenTCEM (talk) 17:44, 28 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

This is a case of apples does not equal oranges. Just because one thing is true does not automatically mean something else is true. We use the different terms based on which parties use them to refer to the MCU multiverse and the main MCU universe. Without updated sourcing to discount that, we can't make such changes to reflect one's preferred opinion. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:58, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Even though occassionally used, the designation of universe where central events of MCU not cleared till this date. It was designated as Earth-616 in Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness (2022) by Marvel; and Earth-199999 in Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse (2023) by Sony. Littlesquirrell (talk) 14:21, 7 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Marvel's official designation within the MCU is what we go by for the MCU articles. Earth-199999 was a real-world designation, though Marvel Studios uses a different universe designation within the MCU's fictional multiverse. Besides, Spider-Verse is Sony, not Marvel Studios. Trailblazer101 (talk) 14:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Not taking part in this discussion anymore but instead I am commenting. I do know what you said as it is clearly understood by this discussion but it does lack references differentiating the difference those designation. Littlesquirrell (talk) 15:36, 7 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

This has all been well-sourced in this article and discussed in prior discussions which back this up. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:45, 7 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Okay, thanks for telling me. Littlesquirrell (talk) 16:46, 7 August 2024 (UTC)Reply