Talk:Pirog

This  level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Food and drink Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Food and drink, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of food and drink related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Food and drinkWikipedia:WikiProject Food and drinkTemplate:WikiProject Food and drinkFood and drink Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Food and Drink task list: edit history watch purge To edit this page, select here Here are some tasks you can do for WikiProject Food and drink: Help bring these Top Importance articles currently B Status or below up to GA status: Agaricus bisporus (i.e. mushroom), Beef, Bread, Curry, Drink, Food, Ham and eggs, Soy sauce, Sushi, Yogurt Bring these Top Importance articles currently at GA status up to FA status: Beer, French cuisine, Sugar Bring these High Importance articles currently at GA status up to FA status: Apple, Burger King, Fish Participate in project-related deletion discussions. Delete unrelated trivia sections found in articles. Please review WP:Trivia and WP:Handling trivia to learn how to do this. Add the {{WikiProject Food and drink}} project banner to food and drink related articles and content to help bring them to the attention of members. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects, select here. Provide photographs and images for Category:Wikipedia requested images of food Consider joining this project's Assessment task force. List any project ideas in this section Note: These lists are transcluded from the project's tasks pages. Russia This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Please see: Pyrog. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:13, 24 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pyrog and Pirog are describing the same meal. Considering that the correct romanization of the Russian word "Пирог" would be "Pirog", I suggest copying the contents of another article into this one and creating the redirect. All interlinks should be directed at this article. Teyandee (talk) 19:13, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Pyrog was redirected to this article on 1 April 2013 (diff). NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 12:22, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I fail to see how the dish differs from "pie", i.e., why we need a separate term/article. -M.Altenmann >t 03:20, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps, because pirogi are one of the key dishes in Slavic cuisines which play a more prominent role there than in many other cuisines and has a number of distinct local varieties. What is missing here is the list of the varieties, like those in ru:Русские пироги#Виды пирогов or it:Pirog#Piroghi russi. --Off-shell (talk) 07:57, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Русские пироги = Russian pies, no more no less. So I still don't see why we need a separate word. And I don't think that pirogi are somehow more "key dishes" in Slavic cuisine than in American cuisine, and in culture in general: "my oh my sweet potato pie". -M.Altenmann >t 08:11, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The name itself plays no role. It is the amount of content for an article which decides whether we should better have a separate article or a chapter in a more common article. For example, should Quiche have a separate article? It is just another kind of pie. Probably yes, because there is apparently much to say about it which would not fit into a common Pie article. If pies have a "high standing" in American cuisine with many distinct American varieties, one could also make a separate article "American pies", why not?

Just another example: Cotoletta, Kotlet schabowy, Schnitzel, Milanesa, Scaloppine, Piccata, Chicken fried steak are basically types of Cutlet or Breaded cutlet. I'm also not sure that one needs a separate article on each of these types. However, if there is much to say about a particular national type, then the separate articles are justified. --Off-shell (talk) 08:33, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK, now compare your arguments with the article content. It can be sweet or savory, it can be square or round, it can be eaten alone and with borsht and so on. How it is different from a regular "pie" and calls for a separate word? -M.Altenmann >t 17:04, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In the Anglophone world, pies are specifically enclosed or open foodstuffs made with shortcrust or puff pastry. Pirogs are made with a rich, yeast-leavened dough of a completely different nature. I'm aware of the fact that, in parts of the US, pizzas are referred to as 'pies' (or the tautological 'pizza pie'), but they are an entirely different form of foodstuff to the great Aussie or Kiwi pie.

While getting too picky about distinct groups of prepared, regional foods is irritating, by the same token getting too generic about the naming convention for them is WP:SYNTH. Where should baklava go? It's made with filo pastry, hence it could be considered a generic pastry form pie (sweet filling) or as a variant on a cake (which could go into that article under the other 'cakes' that aren't actually cakes... or are they?... etc.), and is related to strudel. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:38, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am not a culinary expert. Please look at my arguments. Nowhere in the article I can recognize how pirog is different from pie. Do you have any reliable (I mean really academic, not some random cookbook) sources which clarify regional differences, so that we can have an article "pirog" as a shortcut for "East Slavic pies"? The example with 'baklava' is not an argument: it is a non-translatable term, while pirog<=>pie. -M.Altenmann >t 01:51, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure, if the literature on food traditions qualifies as "academic", but here are some examples:

• Alan Davidson. The Oxford Companion to Food. Oxford University Press, 2014, page 628.
• The english translation of the classical A Gift to Young Housewives keeps the name Pirogs.

So the name "Pirog" is known in English. It is not necessary to rename the article to "Slavic Pies" or whatever. Pirog is not different from pie. Pirog is a common word to describe the regional pie varieties. This includes pirozhki, coulibiac, as well as kurnik, shangi, rasstegai etc. In my opinion, it would be fully correct to make a "Pirog" section in the Pie article with a brief description of the subject and linking to this article as the main article. --Off-shell (talk) 15:34, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]