Talk:Martin Van Buren/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Martin Van Buren. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

This article should be titled Martin van Buren. "Van Buren" is correct when the forename is omitted.

• This would be correct from a European or Dutch perspective, but Americans happen to have an odd habit of capitalizing this part of a name.--Pharos 01:13, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• It appears Van Buren himself capitalized the "V"; if you do a search on "Martin Van Buren Signature" a few items signed by him will come up, showing an Upper Case "V". Sometimes we have to be careful in applying current linguistic "rules" to historical figures and discussions. I would keep it as he used it. Smawnmahlau 14:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this. You (correctly) state the name of his father as Abraham van Buren.

• Since gentry and aristocracy is not recognized in the United States and Martin Van Buren was born in the United States, then the Van (meaning of some distinguished family or place) should be capitalized. But the van for his father shouldn't.Patchouli 23:32, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

If Martin's father was born in the United States, then his Van needs to be capitalized, too.Patchouli 08:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

What is that one reliance? What was van Buren referring to?

That would be speculative, and thus is probably better left out of the article. One might assume the answer would be God, but it could also be the product of a mind that lacked lucidity at the time of death. I'm related to him, by the way.

Cowboydan76 01:44, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

you are?

To be honest, i find it hard to believe that one of the famous quotes Attributed to Van Buren in this time period is, and i quote, "Miller sucks c0ck". This phrase is in the second to last paragraph of the section. i would normally just edit it out and restore the history, but it is locked, so i am reporting it here.

I also find that hard to believe. U.S. Senators rarely speak that way on the record. ;-) This was inserted by anon (75.183.59.157) on November 7. We all managed to miss it until now. I just now fixed it by refering to the once-prior version. Thanks for noticing and calling this out. Hult041956 00:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be a good idea to mention the Trail of Tears in the "presidency" section? I'm not at all familiar with the subject (i.e. President Van Buren) so I'm really just asking — Hillel 08:41, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I can't seem to find my original research on Old Kinderhook, but apparently popular songs at the time were written about Van Buren's corruption.

Popular songs and poetry at the time was written about everything, true or not. With a less literate culture and fewer newspapers (copies were passed around because they were dear), there was a premium on communicating through memorable, easily repeatable ditties. Don't tell Madison Avenue.

But if you can track down pictures of some old broadsheets, those might be good illustrations for the article. Sam 13:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC) (please sign your posts with four "tildes" (~).

"...and the only whose first language was not English." What was his first language then? --NormalAsylum ^(talk)

• Dutch, of course.--Pharos 2 July 2005 18:49 (UTC)

Is there a source for this? I find it hard to beleive that the Dutch language was passed down all the way from his ggg-grandfather. 141.211.172.204 17:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Dutch was the street language in the village where he grew up in 1780s and was the main local language until after 1800. During his stay in Kinderhook, novelist Washington Irving wrote Rip Van Winkle and gathered stories for the Legend of Sleepy Hollow. Ichabod Crane was patterned after the local teacher. see [1] But there were also Yankees in town and Van Buren's father was a tavern keeper who served them. So the boy was most likely bilingual from an early age; his schooling was all English. No biographer mentions any Dutch accent. Rjensen 19:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I've changed this to indicate that he spoke Dutch at home as a boy; from my knowledge of the area's history, it is very likely that he was, at most, fully bi-lingual from an early age, and so had no true "first" language, but perhaps just as likely that Dutch was a bit of a relic more used by older generations. By the time he was being raised, the Dutch language was in rapid decline in the area. Indeed, the migrations and dislocations that occurred during and after the Revolution had probably accelerated the decline significantly. But I'd be interested if there is a better source, since I'm basing this on my knowledge of the region, not on specific knowledge of the Van Buren family. Smawnmahlau 14:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

• Are you joking about English being his second language? Obviously there is no evidence for this since he was no Vladimir Nabokov who wrote books with literary value in English and Russian.

Did Van Buren ever produce any literary works in Dutch? Even if he knew perhaps 4,000 words in Dutch and could carry on a basic conversation, it doesn't mean Dutch was his first language.Patchouli 11:38, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Van Buren spoke Dutch at a child--hence first language. But he attended an English grammar school, which he quit at age 14 to work in a lawyer's office (where English was spoken), so he never wrote anything in Dutch. Rjensen 02:46, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

This web site asserts without citation that Van Buren and his wife spoke Dutch at home. studerby 16:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Little late, but that same site mentions he is the only president from Dutch decent, which afcourse is a false statment as both the Roosevelts are from Dutch decent

Dutch was the primary language of the Hudson Valley for all the 18th century and was still widely spoken as a secondary language well into the 19th century and until some time in the 20th century it was the language spoken in the Dutch Reformed Churches (Albany, New York still has at least 3 or 4 Dutch Reformed Churches and it has a pop. less than 100,000 people). These are the facts and they support Van Buren speaking Dutch from the beginning (which he did). I understand alot of people coming across this are from other parts of the country and arent familiar with the Hudson Valley's distinct Dutch culture, but I encourage them to listen to those who are native to the area and see Dutch culture (the Tulip Festival, Pinkster Festivals), and use Dutch words every day (bush instead of woods, kill instead of creek) and live in towns named by our Dutch ancestors (Watervliet (fast water), Colonie (colony), Catskill)Camelbinky (talk) 23:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

A recent NPR story mentioned Dutch was his first language and that he was fully fluent in both Dutch and English. Also, when in politics he occassionally was noted to revert to swearing in Dutch when very angry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.95.126.178 (talk) 15:29, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Van buren seems to come up a lot

care to elaborate on this? Philmcl 02:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know this meme specifically but several possibilities are: "Van Buren" was the working title of the game Fallout 3 while it was being developed by Interplay (before Bethesda started working on it). Possibly confused with "Von Braun" which was used as the name for spaceships in several sci-fi novels as well as the game System Shock 2, named after the scientist Wernher von Braun. Mloren (talk) 01:27, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

It is messy and could use some help

Is Van Buren the first President of whom we have a photo? --85.176.2.85 12:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I think someone should change the photo of Van Buren...

there are more photos of Van Buren and other presidents if you look around —Preceding unsigned comment added by Viperman123 (talk • contribs) 21:30, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Where are the photos you have in mind? 24.36.74.15 (talk) 21:10, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Do I correctly understand that Van Buren was Jewish or at least had some Jewish blood relatives?

For your kind information, Van Buren wasn't even distantly jewish. He was Protestant.

MY DEAR SIR, DON'T GET ME WRONG, I DON'T CARE ABOUT HIS FAITH, I ASKED WHETHER HE WAS OF JEWISH NATIONALITY. TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT.

There is no Jewish Nationality, there is a Israeli Nationality and a Jewish fate. Most (but not all) Israeli are of the Jewish fate, and a lot of Jewish are Israeli nationals Mach10 07:20, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

This isnt the place to discuss it, BUT- there is certainly a Jewish Nationality, it is seperate from the Israeli nationality, do not confuss the two. Being Jewish is a nationality, an ethnic connotation, and can be a religion. You do not have to practice the Jewish faith to be of the Jewish nationality and ethnic group. Not all nationalities have a nation, nor do they need a nation to be a nationality. Please be careful of topics like this in article discussion pages that have nothing to do with it, as it is a touchy topic. Plus it has nothing to do with Van Buren.Camelbinky (talk) 23:50, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it is more correct to say there is Jewish ethnicity which is separate from Judaism. Jewish nationalism is generally referred to as Zionism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.95.126.178 (talk) 15:30, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

At the US History Museaum in DC there's a computer terminal where you can vote for your favorite president. I chose van Buren as a joke; an 'error' message popped up and the terminal was thereafter unusuable. "Voting for Martin van Buren as 'Favorite President' has been known to destroy computers" should perhaps be added? --Xiaphias 12:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

That is the funniest thing I heard this week.Mantion 00:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I saw on TV that the term OK (okay) came from the abbreviation of Old Kinderhook. Any of you Van Buren experts know if this is true or worth including in the article.Mantion 00:55, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

We have a whole article about this at Okay. It's listed as an 'improbable' etymology. DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:13, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

In the light of this I removed reference to it from the "Election of 1836" section where it seemed trivial and inappropriate. Anyone wanting information on this subject would probably be looking for it at the Okay article rather than the Van Buren one. 24.36.74.15 (talk) 01:50, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

That seems unlikely. I could believe that he is the first President to have been born a United States Citizen. I'll change it unless anyone has an explanation. DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:09, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Found a reference - and it's been changed. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the reference is in correct. Martin was born on December 5th, 1782, in what now is the State of New York. However New York did not ratify the US Constitution till 26th of June 1788. He was thus born in the Province of New York a sovereign state in Confederation, but not yet part of the Union (that is the United States). Mach10 (talk) 18:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not an expert here, but some fairly learned organizations seem to think he was. Here are some of the references I found Brittanica US Mint Hoover Presidential Library. Surely New York could be part of the US without ratifying the constitution. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Then why not use those far more trusty sources as a reference?Mach10 (talk) 19:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I only went to look for them after you asked. But a good point - I'll add them. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Word Mach10 (talk) 19:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I hate to open an old discussion, but the United States of America was created under the Articles of Confederation, not the Constitution. MVB was, without a doubt, the First American President —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.218.194.223 (talk) 07:39, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

When the The United States of America came into being is a matter of definition. We FIRST declared ourselves the United States of America in 1776, when the original 13 colonies declared independence as the United States of America on July 2; The Declaration of Independence was adopted on July 4; after our victory over the British are Saratoga, the first international recognition of our independence and existence as a separate nation, came from France in 1777. The Articles of Confederation were adopted that same year, but it wasn't until the 1783 Treaty of Paris where we can say unequivocally that our existence as a separate and independent nation was unfettered. It is probably too debatable to say that Van Buren was the first President who was born a US citizen, since the independence of the US was still in question, and the definition of citizenship of the US was not even defined until done so in the US Constitution.

Van Buren was born in the country that called itself USA starting in July 1776. The US celebrates its birthday --its date of independence--as July 4, 1776, which should settle matters. Nobody has suggested a better date and 1776 was always celebrated in Van Buren's lifetime. The US was independent of Britain in fact and in recognition by 1777 --indeed after losing its army at Saratoga (1777) Britain realized that the USA would be independent...but it kept going in order to grab parts of the South for itself and failed. Rjensen (talk) 00:56, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

The US Department of State provides a list of all the Secretaries of state here. Those who also held the office of President are Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, JQ Adams, Van Buren and Buchanan. The US Senate provides a list of all the Vice Presidents here. Those who also held the office of President are Jefferson, Van Buren, Tyler, Fillmore, A Johnson, Arthur, T Roosevelt, Coolidge, Truman, Nixon, L Johnson, Ford and Bush the First. Those who are on both lists are Jefferson and Van Buren. The same information can easily be found on Wikipedia. The two lists could be cited, allowing people to compare for themselves, but this information is so public and so easy of access that a citation seems (to me, at least) unnecessary. 24.36.74.15 (talk) 16:45, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

It may be obvious to you or to those who know where to look, but as this is a worldwide resource many people have no knowledge of US information or where to look for it. Would you know details if the person was a representative for say Greenland or Italy? Why not just add the reference you quote to the article so that others who do not know US details can verify the information? Keith D (talk) 17:54, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Not a problem, as long as I don't have to cite some "authority" who SAYS Jefferson and Van Buren were the only holders of all three offices. I placed references to the most authoritative-sounding lists I could find of all the US Secretaries of State, Vice Presidents and Presidents immediately after the statement in question, so anyone can verify for himself that the statement is true. If someone thinks the information should be presented in a different way, the links are now on the page ready for use. 24.36.74.15 (talk) 18:46, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Why does Little Magician redirect here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.139.85.108 (talk) 23:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Van Buren was referred to (typically by adversaries, I believe) as "The Little Magician." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yx7791 (talk • contribs) 01:48, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I was looking at old Presidential photographs, and I noticed that the print from the Brady/Handy collection are attribute either Brady or Handy as the author of the photo. Handy's bio says that he was apprenticed to Brady when he was twelve. Van Buren died in 1862, when Handy was less than seven years old. The date of the photo was traced to between 1860 and 1862. That would mean Brady would have been between four and seven years old. Doesn't it seem highly unlikely that Handy would have authored the photo?

BMW (talk) 02:34, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Why is there no mention of the O.K Club in this article? http://am-perspectives.blogspot.com/2011/04/ok-club.html Regardless of where the word "O.K" came from, the political club founded by Van Buren's supporters should probably get a mention. Mloren (talk) 01:23, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I understand he grew up in a heavily Dutch area of New York (I am descended from people who lived in the same area), and that he may very well have spoken Dutch at home and been bilingual his whole life. But is there any reason to list the Dutch spelling of Martin? Is there any any any reason to believe that his name was ever spelled that way? Why is this on there?

Uac1530 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:29, 4 March 2012 (UTC).

Why is Free Soil listed as his primary party in the table on the right with Democratic listed as another party? While all the parties currently listed should continue to be listed, it strikes me that Democratic should be the primary party as that is the party he helped create and the party he was a member of when he served as Vice President and President. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.44.139.216 (talk) 13:19, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure where in the article to say it, but should we mention that Van Buren was short? http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/presidents/martinvanburen That helps explain "Little Magician", the cartoon showing Jackson carrying him, and "little Van" in the Tippecanoe and Tyler Too song. 2601:8:B500:862:AC24:8E9A:5AD0:738C (talk) 17:04, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Martin Van Buren by Mathew Brady c1855-58.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on December 5, 2013. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2013-12-05. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:48, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Picture of the day

Martin Van Buren (1782–1862) was the eighth president of the United States, serving from 1837 to 1841. Earlier, he was the eighth vice president (1833–1837), and before that, the tenth secretary of state (1829–1831), both under Andrew Jackson.Photo: Mathew Brady

Archive – More featured pictures...

"... Martin Van Buren learned as a young man to make a positive impression by dressing ...." The beginning & end of this sentence from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Martin_Van_Buren&oldid=646916638 is a Copvio (I have only provided the non-copyvio text here). I have reported it at Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2015 February 13. If it is removed, please do not restore it. Peaceray (talk) 16:27, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I understand he grew up in a heavily Dutch area of New York (I am descended from people who lived in the same area), and that he may very well have spoken Dutch at home and been bilingual his whole life. But is there any reason to list the Dutch spelling of Martin? Is there any any any reason to believe that his name was ever spelled that way? Why is this on there?

Uac1530 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:29, 4 March 2012 (UTC).

It's not speculation that Dutch was his first language. The name Martin is fairly rare in Dutch, the name Maarten isn't. Case and point: The island of Saint Martin is called the Sint Maarten in Dutch. I could only find second hand sources to substantiate that Van Buren was really called Maarten. This redditor says he/she found his name in a church registry, this blogger is quoting a book I can't find on Amazon. The latter doesn't look like a good source since in just that one quote the author seems to think he wasn't actually born in the US. Things are complicated by his name being a very common Dutch name, hence there being plenty of modern day Maarten van Burens out there.--1Veertje (talk) 21:44, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

The baptismal record with the spelling "Maarten" is featured in this article! Fentener van Vlissingen (talk) 14:03, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I've reinstated the Dutch spelling + prenounciation of his name at the beginning of the article.--1Veertje (talk) 13:33, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

The baptismal record does spel Van Buren with a capital V. Vernoeming (talk) 12:47, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

It strikes me that the second paragraph of the lede is unduly filled with personal information and downright trivia about Van Buren and perhaps should be re-focused to give the reader more about Van Buren's accomplishments, which were not trivial.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:19, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

That is an excellent point, and I took it up and rewrote the paragraph to emphasize his political skills and achievements. Rjensen (talk) 05:27, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.whitehouse.gov/1600/presidents/martinvanburen (taken from Hugh Sidey (1999) The Presidents of the United States of America). Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and according to fair use may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:41, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Public domain#U.S. government works, and cool down. Kraxler (talk) 11:14, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm cool. Please see the page linked in the notice above, http://www.whitehouse.gov/1600/presidents/martinvanburen, and in particular the notice near the foot of that page which reads:

The Presidential biographies on WhiteHouse.gov are from “The Presidents of the United States of America,” by Frank Freidel and Hugh Sidey. Copyright 2006 by the White House Historical Association.

Not all content hosted on .gov websites is in the public domain. The short copyright-infringing passage may have been added in good faith by an editor under the same misapprehension as Kraxler. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:39, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I just wondered what this was about, since you added the notice, but did not edit the article. Could you briefly point out where the copyrighted material was added? Kraxler (talk) 12:37, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

There was a sentence in the lead about Van Buren being 5 feet 6 inches, but trim and erect. It's a line that shows up in a lot of references, but was removed from the lead during editing after the topic was first mentioned on the Talk page for the article.

Billmckern (talk) 13:16, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Then, there's no problem anymore? It's more than probable that the authors cited on the White House site copied that statement already from somewhere else. But that's a moot point now, or not? Cheers. Kraxler (talk) 13:34, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the point is moot because the content in question was removed in subsequent editing.

Billmckern (talk) 14:10, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

After being accused of vested interests I just wish to say that I was merely being faithful to the source, which actually isn't merely about "states' rights". Lutie (talk) 00:47, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

You're right. I checked the reference, which definitely uses the term "administrative republic." I changed this line in the article to reflect the words of the original reference.

Billmckern (talk) 01:19, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Alright, let's have it out. I think a blanket revert ill-advised. What you are saying is that nothing there is worth keeping, and I don't think that's justifiable.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:37, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

When he first began his legal studies, Van Buren was badly dressed. The Silvesters suggested that Van Buren could improve his professional prospects by dressing fashionably. (I think the passage on this topic was fine as written, and was well-referenced.)

The Silvesters did their best to get Van Buren to be a Federalist, but with the support of his family, he resisted. He turned to the leading Jeffersonians in the county, the Van Ness family. John Peter Van Ness, who lent him money and arranged for Van Buren to complete his apprenticeship in the New York City office of Van Ness's brother William. (Same -- I think the passages on this topic were fine as they were, and well-referenced. Why use only the Cole book as a reference?)

John Van Ness also helped Van Buren politically, in 1801 arranging for him, at age 18, to be a delegate to the party's state convention in Troy. In return, Van Buren helped John Van Ness win a seat in Congress in 1802.^[1] (Same -- this was already stated and already referenced. Why change it?)

In New York City beginning in 1802, Van Buren involved himself in politics, often meeting William Van Ness's mentor, Vice President Aaron Burr. As Burr had often frequented the Van Buren tavern, and the two men closely resembled each other, there were rumors that Van Buren was Burr's illegitimate son.^[2] (I really object to this. As far as I can tell, this story is mostly the result of Gore Vidal's novel. I could find only a couple of references to it from before that book's publication. One was from 1912, and this story was included only so that it could be debunked. Famous Affinities of History: The Romance of Devotion. Volume 2. By Lyndon Orr. I think something like this really needs to be substantiated if it's going to be included.

Billmckern (talk) 01:24, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the sources are whatever you could find on Google Books; many do not specifically deal with Van Buren. You have left the full search in the URL, which makes for very crowded paragraphs and difficulty in editing. All you need is the initial alphanumeric scene. What was your reason for reverting that? Biographies are by people who have studied Van Buren, many of the sources you used are very old and cannot be considered very reliable.

Regarding Burr in particular, the rumors that he was Van Buren's father were widespread throughout Van Buren's career, at least among his enemies. It is fairly typical, in fact, of the sort of slander that was given out against Van Buren (by that time, Burr had worse things to worry about). As far as I know, it has nothing to do with Gore Vidal, though I take your word that it's in his bio of Burr. Have you read Cole and his discussion of this manner, or other modern Van Buren biographers?

You reverted against two different editors. I do not see that your reasons are sufficient. Not for a blind reversion, a determination that nothing another editor spent time over was worth keeping. Were there other reasons for your actions? Your difficulty seemed to be that you and (so you say) other editors had done things in a certain way, that you did not like to see disturbed. I do not believe that sufficient either. So I will ask you again the reasons for your actions, and hope for candor.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:50, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I believe my reasons were perfectly clear -- no guile.

I think some of the passages were fine as written, so there was no need to change them.

I also think the references were fine -- if they're right, why does it matter if they're old? I don't get why an entire article should be based mostly on a single source -- in this case Cole's book. Why is Cole the only one to consult about the subject of Martin Van Buren?

I think that some changes, like the stupid rumor about Van Buren being Burr's son, don't need to be included on the grounds that they're stupid rumors.

The point about Cleveland and Van Buren being the only presidents without both college and military experience was useful. I hadn't realized that before now, and it's interesting in that it provides context about their professional and personal development.

In my view, edits ought to provide useful elaboration on a narrative, or improve it, such as by making it more chronological or eliminating redundant passages, or they ought to correct information that isn't accurate. Otherwise you're just stepping on someone else's research and writing efforts.

Billmckern (talk) 02:15, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't plan to go in circles with you on this, I am merely confirming my own conclusions. If the Cleveland material was useful, then a blind revert was ill-advised and it is for you to revert yourself. The rest of it could be discussed, not reverted, and certainly not against two different editors. Cole is one source, of course there are others, to use a single source several times in a biographical section is hardly undue. Are you saying the article is not capable of any improvement whatsoever? Or that only you and the other editors you alluded to in your first edit summary are capable of doing it?--Wehwalt (talk) 02:30, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

You're going in circles. We've had this discussion before. I'm tired of it. So, the list of pages I know that you and only you can make edits on now includes Martin Van Buren and Franklin Pierce. Why don't you just give me the complete list so I know where you'll be and I can steer clear of you from now on?

Billmckern (talk) 02:40, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Let's end it with that before we say things we regret. I do think there are better ways of article improvement than catch as catch can with Google books, and I suspect if we were both willing, we could do it in a way that stepped on no one's toes.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:55, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Under Early life and education...

Martin Van Buren would become the only U.S. president who spoke English as a second language, and the only one prior to John F. Kennedy not to be of principally British descent.

This should read "Dwight D. Eisenhower" as he was of German (Pennsylvania Dutch) ancestry and he preceded John F. Kennedy as President. 199.115.187.37 (talk) 18:04, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Theodore and Franklin Roosevelt defined themselves as principally of Dutch dissent. Perhaps it's best just to leave this dubious statement out. Rjensen (talk) 19:04, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Andrew Jackson's parents were Scots-Irish immigrants from Ireland, not British. William McKinley was also of Scots-Irish ancestry, as indicated by his surname. The Roosevelts and Eisenhower were already mentioned. I don't see how the statement about JFK being the first since Van Buren to be something other than British in ancestry can be considered valid.

Billmckern (talk) 19:41, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Billmckern, performed this revert citing an issue with the word "tern" and "Democrat Party". however, if you check the diff, this revert didn't fix either of these problems. these edits were introduced much earlier by another editor. to find them. you can use the page history link, and the diff links for each edit. to undo them, you have to select a span of edits and undo the entire span. since Billmckern doesn't understand how this works, I went ahead and rolled back the offending edits. note that this also rolled back Billmckern's contribution in the middle, found here. I will leave it to Billmckern add that back if he/she finds it was important. Frietjes (talk) 15:02, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

@Frietjes: -- I know how reverting edits works. I see that you caught up to the "tern" and "Democrat Party" edits and made the changes. I was working on the same thing at the same time and got an edit conflict notice. We're good. Oh -- spare me your condescension, please.

Billmckern (talk) 15:05, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

i'm nominating for GA since the revscore indicates FA https://ores.wmflabs.org/scores/enwiki/wp10/712056762/ -- Duckduckstop (talk) 18:02, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

"Van Buren's inability as president to deal with the economic chaos of the Panic of 1837 and with the surging Whig Party led to his defeat in the 1840 election."

Really? Someone just wrote that without any bibliographical references? Van Buren's inauguration and the Panic of 1837 were only a few weeks apart, yet the Panic of 1837 and his electoral defeat in 1840 were separated by years. What evidence is there to make such a claim? I eat a tuna sandwich today and three years later I die: did the sandwich kill me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oulipal (talk • contribs) 12:34, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

well he was dying the whole time because the economy remained in the dumps. eg: 1) "he took much of the blame for the Panic of 1837; it was a major factor in his losing the 1840 election." in Exploring American History: From Colonial Times to 1877 2) "This Whig cartoon from the 1840 campaign blames the Panic of 1837 on the Democrats" Liberty, Equality, Power: A History of the American People,; 3) "The deepening of the depression [in 1840] made the Whig presidential nomination all the more attractive." Martin van Buren and the American Political System - Page 349. etc Rjensen (talk) 12:42, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

I just added references which address these points. I included relevant quotes.

Billmckern (talk) 13:16, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Although one source states that MVB was "the middle child of nine children", I haven't been able to find documentation for more than 8. Therefore I deleted this sentence in the article. A subsequent revision re-inserted that statement. I am going to take it out again; I am not trying to start an edit war, but if you can't find evidence of who #9 is, please don't re-add that line. TIA --Spray787 (talk) 00:34, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Spray787, note that I removed the Apparently erroneous information yesterday evening. Cheers. Drdpw (talk) 01:03, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

I did some checking tonight -- some online sources list eight brothers and sisters for Van Buren, but it looks to me like they count one twice.

One of Van Buren's half-brothers was James I. Van Alen. In Dutch, James is "Jacobus". That's the name under which James Van Alen was baptized at Kinderhook's Dutch Reformed Church -- just as Martin Van Buren was baptized as "Maarten" -- Martin in Dutch.

Here's one site that does what I described -- counts James twice - once as James, and once as Jacobus. Martin Van Buren, 8th President of the USA at Geni.com.

I previously added photos of pages from the Kinderhook Dutch Reformed Church baptismal register to the Wikipedia pages for Van Buren and Van Alen, so you can check them to verify what I've written here if you need to.

Billmckern (talk) 01:06, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Not only that, but Johannes/John is listed as 2 separate people as well, as is Jannetja/Hannah; Marytjr is left out altogether. Definitely an unreliable tertiary source. Drdpw (talk) 01:33, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

I didn't intend it as a "source". More like an example of what I think the problem might be. Billmckern (talk) 02:47, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

The following lines (Early life and education section) utilize URL cites which are not acceptable per WP:DEEPLINK:

Marytje (or Maria) Van Alen (1768–1829), married John L. Hoes

John I. Van Alen (1770–1805)

Jannetje (Called "Hannah" or "Jane") Van Buren (1780–1838), who never married and who resided with her sister Dirckie Van Buren and brother-in-law Barent Hoes.

Hoppyh (talk) 21:37, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

I updated the URLs for the first two lines -- it now goes to the relevant Dutch Reformed Church records database within Ancestry.com.

I updated the URL for the third one, too -- it now goes directly to the death notice for Jane Van Buren, and not just the relevant newspaper page.

Billmckern (talk) 22:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

The memorials section seems excessively long to me. Would anyone object to me creating a subarticle devoted to memorials, much like Memorials to Warren G. Harding? Orser67 (talk) 06:33, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

As no one objected, I went ahead and created the subarticle. Orser67 (talk) 23:35, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

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Typically for Wikipedia, this section has more about fictional and popular references than it has about real memorials. I've tried to rebalance this a little. Richard75 (talk) 00:35, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

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Italic text Martin was a senator from New York a vice president and the 8th president of the united states born in Kinderhook Columbia County N.Y he attended the village schools studies law admitted to the bar and commenced practice in Hudson — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.184.222.241 (talk) 23:48, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

@Ivar the Boneful: I have been attempting to reduce over-linking according to this section of the style guide, which is a significant problem in this article—and you are engaging in a wholesale revert war. Furthermore, you have been verbally abusive in your comments. I have documented the justification for my edits, so kindly justify your reverts. And desist from verbal abuse or I will engage administrative assistance in this matter. —Dilidor (talk) 16:55, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

@Dilidor: Copied from Ivar's talk page as he is currently prevented from editing elsewhere: "You randomly deleted links, deleted a sentence mentioning one of the most notable aspects of Van Buren's career, and now you're making up lies about "abuse". I'm starting to think you're a troll, and I'm not going to engage with you any further. If you keep this up I will report you to admins. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 17:20, 24 July 2018 (UTC)" Favonian (talk) 17:23, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

@Favonian: Thank you. I presume that was copied for informational purposes, rather than any endorsement of it? I also note that my edits were reverted yet again, but I will wait a day before editing further on this article to let the dust settle. —Dilidor (talk) 18:42, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Dilidor, are you seriously suggesting that no readers of this article would be interested in reading about the elections Martin Van Buren contested? Because that's the impression one gets when you remove the links to the article. Links are about the readers ... I'm opposing to overlinking as much as anyone, but this is not overlinking. WP:OVERLINK: "A good question to ask yourself is whether reading the article you're about to link to would help someone understand the article you are linking from.". If you've got some philosophical opposition to linking, take it up in a general forum, don't just go around removing them from random articles. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 14:29, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Discuss and !vote here: Talk:Van_Buren#Requested_move_29_January_2017. (intentionally unsigned) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Born2cycle (talk • contribs) 00:20, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Corrected link (as of move): Talk:Van_Buren_(disambiguation)#Requested_move_29_January_2017 Colin M (talk) 01:39, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Last month, user Unklscrufy uploaded his own colourised picture of Van Buren. As it is his own creation, he does not need to ask for permission to use it and he has released it under a Creative Commons licence as you can see here, which makes it appropriate to use on Wikipedia pages. As for usage of original images and specifically photo manipulation, more info about Wikipedia's policy can be found under the "original images" subheading on the WP:NOR page here. Relevant quotes are shown below.

"Original images created by a Wikipedian are not considered original research, so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the NOR policy" -- Therefore this does not break the WP:NOR policy.

"It is not acceptable for an editor to use photo manipulation to distort the facts or position illustrated by an image." -- The facts and position are not distorted.

"Manipulated images should be prominently noted as such." -- The caption clearly states colourised.

"Any manipulated image where the encyclopedic value is materially affected should be posted to Wikipedia:Files for discussion." -- Similarly the encyclopaedic value is only slightly improved and not necessarily significantly affected.

As a result, the colourised picture is appropriate for use here so I have decided to revert it. Snkn179 (talk) 14:10, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:VAN BUREN, Martin-President (BEP engraved portrait).jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on December 5, 2020. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2020-12-05. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:57, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Picture of the day

Martin Van Buren (December 5, 1782 – July 24, 1862) was an American statesman who served as the eighth president of the United States from 1837 to 1841. A founder of the Democratic Party, he won the 1836 presidential election with the endorsement of popular outgoing President Andrew Jackson and the organizational strength of his party. He lost his 1840 reelection bid to the Whig Party nominee William Henry Harrison, thanks in part to the poor economic conditions surrounding the Panic of 1837, a financial crisis that touched off a major depression. This line engraving of Van Buren was produced around 1902 by the Department of the Treasury's Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) as part of a BEP presentation album of the first 26 presidents.Engraving credit: Bureau of Engraving and Printing; restored by Andrew Shiva

Archive – More featured pictures...

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Van Buren owned slaves as a young man, but by 1827 he had none, in keeping with New York's gradual emancipation law. In addition, there is a well-known story from the mid-1820s concerning Van Buren and slavery. His personal valet Tom "ran away" and Van Buren made no attempt to find him. When another upstate New York resident found Tom living in Massachusetts, he attempted to buy Tom from Van Buren. Van Buren secretly and intentionally set a high purchase price and stringent conditions for Tom's recapture. These facts, added to the fact that even if recaptured the former slave would be released in 1827, caused the prospective buyer to give up, which Van Buren probably intended. Allowing Tom to secretly remain in Massachusetts unmolested enabled Van Buren to avoid offending southern slave owners, which would happen if he publicly allowed a former slave to remain free. But he also avoided offending northern abolitionists, which would be the case if he captured and re-enslaved a former slave. Here is a reference. Here is another.

I don't see how someone who sent to such lengths to ensure someone's continued freedom fit into the "racism" category.

Billmckern (talk) 00:50, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

The only US president not related to any other US president as of October 2020, although one individual claims he has researched and all Presidents so far are related. https://www.wcia.com/news/could-trump-be-related-to-every-president/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:4E02:9580:C17:7CAB:BF96:23BF (talk) 03:17, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Today I changed Martin Van Buren's Wikipedia picture from a black and white photograph to a color painting. The reason I did this is while the black and white photograph was taken after Van Buren was in office, the color painting was taken just a few years before Van Buren was president and thus probably is a better representation of Van Buren while he was president. --Helloguyswhatisup (talk) 20:04, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I found a better painting of Martin Van Buren, which was from around 1837-1838, and thus is a painting of Martin Van Buren from either when he was President of the United States or President-Elect. Here is the painting:

--Helloguyswhatisup (talk) 14:25, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, Attic Salt (talk) 17:41, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Putting the years the Wikipedia images for Quincy Adams, Andrew Jackson and Van Buren were created seems like a good compromise. Make their Wikipedia pictures photographs, but make sure people know when those photographs were made (after those Presidents were in office). I like these new changes

I wanted to add a picture of either the coin or the silver medal to break up the text, but I don't know how to do that. Could anyone point me to the appropriate instructions? Thanks.ScarletPlanet (talk) 20:54, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

@ScarletPlanet: Please see the following:

• Help:Pictures
• commons:Category:Presidential dollar (Martin Van Buren)
• commons:Category:Presidential $1 Coin Program

Clicking on an individual picture in a category will display the image with a menu bar above the image. Choose the middle one to the right of the Wikipedia icon to get copy and paste wikitext. I suggest using the Thumbnail version. Remember to preview it & keep moving it until you get the vertical position correct. Peaceray (talk) 22:00, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

" He was the first president to have been born after the American Revolution" isn't true since he was born during the Revolution. Perhaps he is known as the first President born after the Declaration of Independence? Ealtram (talk) 19:15, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

It's a Dutch name, and it should be van Buren, not Van Buren. Amazing how this got overlooked for over 2 decades. Aquatic Ambiance (talk) 10:41, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

@Aquatic Ambiance: Sure, the name is of Dutch origin, but he was American and his name is always written "Van". Please see Van (Dutch)#Collation and capitalisation for a more general discussion. Favonian (talk) 10:47, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that he changed his legal name from "Maarten" to "Martin"? I think we have proof on the page that he was baptized as "Maarten", so if his legal name was never changed perhaps the lede should be changed to:

• Maarten "Martin" Van Buren, or
• Maarten van Buren, better known as Martin Van Buren.--Ortizesp (talk) 22:34, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

@Ortizesp: Well, there's Van Buren's 1835 campaign biography, which indicates that 'Martin" is correct. There's also his autobiography. His grave marker, photos of which are available on Find A Grave, also indicate that "Martin" is correct. There are also contemporary documents, including newspaper accounts of his elections and appointments, which indicate that Martin is the right spelling. Here (1808) and here (1815). But the first Newspapers.com entry I found for "Maarten Van Buren" dates from 1980. Billmckern (talk) 22:49, 17 August 2022 (UTC)