Talk:Haydar

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Haydar is a common Arabic and Persian name. It means Lion. It may also be an epithet of Ali, and evoke Ali in the thoughts of Shi'a Muslims, but that does not mean that Shi'a Muslims can hijack this article to post fulsome praise of Ali. It is not relevant. You guys can set up your own website and praise Ali all you'd like, but WP is an encyclopedia. Zora 04:46, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Zora this is an encyclopedia and it does not mean that you have the right to revert whatever you do not personally like. As it looks like you do not know any Arabic or even anything about Islam other than your Madelung Book. Madelung Book is not all Islam on paper. If you do not have real proof of something wrong then do not just revert. I wonder what in this article makes it a shi'a hagiography, when you know by now in Pakistan they give the Haydar award. And in case you donot know shia there are a minority and when in palestine and elsewhere and and I do not know if you know that there is almost no Shia in Palestine they chant what is mentioned in this article as a news piece about how important is the name of haydar i For Muslims and not Only Shi'a. Ali doe snot mean Shi'a although Shi'a wish that way. Sunni love Ali as well. You can not play on those feelings here. I do not undertsand your reaction to the Haydar name? as a name foe Ali. And Haydar is not Persian same as Mohammad , Ali, Omar etc...., Just so that you know. I do not like to get into those revert wars so please be nice. 129. 05:14, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Besides it is not a praise name. Arabs in those days used to have many names, like in the US they have two names. 129. 05:16, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic sure does seem to have a lot of words for "lion"!  ;-) AnonMoos 11:41, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

All, this is a disambiguation page... I am not really judging the information about Ali... I think it could have been NPOVed but that's not the point. This is a disambugation page and the point is to give a simple and quick reference so people can find the material... elongating this to discuss half a dozen subjects ruins the whole point of a disambiguation page. If you want to talk about Ali and Haydar then do it on something related to Ali if it fits... but this page should be short and sweet so people can find people called Haydar... gren グレン 12:26, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This should stay as a disambiguation page, not a PoV fork of articles about Ali. Physchim62 (talk) 12:37, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Who decided this can not be a article about the name? There is a whole category for that [1]. If you are so eager to creat a disambig, creat Haydar (disamig), dont delete this name article. Furhter, this is not a pov fork about Ali, this is about how the name "haydar" is and has been used. --Striver 13:04, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1) If a name refers only to ONE person, then of course the name article can talk about that person and that person alone.

2) If the name is overwhelmingly associated with just one person, then we'll devote the article to that person and add a few lines to the top to point to other uses of the term.

3) If the name is common to many people, then we put up a page with all the variants listed, so that the encyclopedia user can go to the one he or she really wants.

Striver seems to want to put the article in the second category -- Haydar refers to Ali whenever not otherwise specified. But ... this was not Ali's name; it is an honorific applied by later Muslims. It is a common name, not something exclusive to Ali. Moreover, it is a common epithet. Muslims adopted the term "lion" for a brave warrior from earlier civilizations; see this Christian-POV site [2]. If you google on "Lion of God", you'll get references to many figures and groups, Christian and Muslim.

Moreover, Ali is better known under his real name, and has a whole, long article devoted to him. Striver seems to want two main articles devoted to Ali, which is nonsense. If he wants Haydar to be the main Ali article, then Ali ibn Abi Talib should be deleted.

Striver set up this article originally to bolster his claim that a Pakistani military decoration, the Nishan-E-Haider, is named after Ali. Told that it was named after Haider Ali, he set up this article to make the argument that all Haydars/Haiders refer to Ali.

Striver also used this tactic in connection with his latest go round on the 9/11 articles -- told that the conspiracy theorists he was referencing were too obscure to count, he set up a slew of articles devoted to the theorists.

In this case, the article is actually useful -- but as changed into a disambiguation page, not as a ploy in an argument about Pakistani military decorations. Zora 23:45, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have set up this page and not Striver. It was to clarify who Haydar is. If you only say Haydar, it is like saying Ali. I hope you would not go now and make Ali a disambiguation page. It was partly Striver mistake - sorry- by introducing more names with Haydar in their names. And then you came obviuosly with lots of problems with Haydar and you made the page a dsiambiguation page, which frankly I wouldnot agree on. YOu can make a page called Haydar (disambig) as many pages are. But I did not want to waste my time and your time by going into revert wars. But if you choose to delete the mention of Haydar-e-l-Karrar from the page I am ready for revert wars. Peace be upon those who like it. The Peace Worshipper^Talk 01:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm curious to know if there are any historical references for this name (Haydar-e-l-Karrar) or even Haydar-al-Karrar because Google returns only four links of which three are from Wikipedia itself and one is a Wikipedia mirror. Of course this is not an exhaustive search but it gives the idea that there is no basis for this name. The article on Haydar-e-l-Karrar gives one external link which does not mention Haydar. I have also tried Haydar-al-Karrar which gave twenty-three links mostly wikipedia-related or mirrored but no independent source for the name. Green Giant 01:37, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Green Giant and Zora highlight the arabic in the artcile and google it and you will see you will get a huge number rarely from wikipedia. Although I agree English is a universal language and has almost all kinds of literature translated into it, it is still not rich enough especially about islamic History. In all arabic books you would know that Haydar is Ali. The most famous recroded story that you would find in most arabic historical books about the battle of Khandaq (trench) and battle of Khaybar you would see what is written in that artcile. The problem is Zora is trying to impose herself as a judge and she does not know arabic. And the glory of wikipedia and English is that people can get the info from original before unlike anywhere else. I am confident that Zora will change her mind and will be convinced that Haydar is Ali and Haydar-el-Karrar is a title of Ali as hse had done shortly before for Haydar and Ali. I do advise and hope that Zora gets an Arab or Muslim friend that she can trust so that she will learn arabic and learn a little more about Ali. I do apologize about the tone in my previous posting, it looked more like a threat. I wanted to convey how strongly I think that Haydar should not have been converted to a disambig page and at the same time that Haydar is as important name of Ali in his capacity as one of the greatest if not the greatest army leader in early Mulsim wars and that his name still resonate till now. Zora has shown some of her kindness in removing Rafidi from Abu Dharr article and I just want her to thank her for that. I promise you Zora I will talk to you more when I have more time about the points you have stirred so far on all pages. And maybe I can teach you Arabic. Seeing your zeal you might end up being an Islamic religious scholar and hopefully a good one so then maybe we can call you Allama and your judging will be trustworthy. The Peace Worshipper^{Talk to TPW129.} 00:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• When I asked for historical references, I should have been more clearer. What I mean't was are there historical references in any language other than English. I am fully aware of the numerous hits in Arabic [3] but what I wanted to know is which sources have been used to verify that the name Haydar-e-l-Karrar is an ephithet of the Caliph Ali. Green Giant 00:32, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• When I had posted my request above, something began to play on my mind and it is basically this - no matter how much you say that there are Arabic texts which use Haydar-e-l-Karrar, there should have been at least some non-Arab academic who had studied this matter and mentioned it in writing somewhere. You have to bear in mind that not every reader who looks at this and related pages, will be able to understand Arabic so readers will need some confirmation of the facts in a translated or academically-reviewed text. Looking through the first few Arabic sites has not shown me any substantial evidence in favour of your assertion. Thats not to say it is incorrect but it would be most helpful if you could point me in the direction of a verifiable source (preferably of an academic nature) and just so you know, I have a fairly good grasp of both al-luġatul-ʻarabiyyatul-fuṣḥā and fârsi, so don't be afraid of pointing me to texts in these languages. Green Giant 03:30, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Green Giant, Sorry I was talking to Zora through you, while I should have addressed your points in amore appropriate manner. There is a useful website [4] where you can type or copy/paste كرار غير فرار and see the hadiths of the prophet where he called him Karrar.There are 21 sunni books that are listed about the incident. I am not sure they are about that same tradition. But you can check this one [5] an important one is كنز العمال في سنن الأقوال والأفعال

You can also look up that his mother named him Haydar as he Ali himself says by copying and pasting حيدر [6] and you will see lots of references. Not all of them about Ali for there are later Haydars who are not Ali. Sahih Muslim, one of the most Sunni authentic books, mention the hadith of Karrar. That is in the volume of Kitab al-Jihad wassiyar of Sahih Muslim. [7] in english towards the end of the hadith[8]

So if you read Haydar-e-l-Karrar you will know that Hydar is not an epithet but his name that was given to him by his mother. The arabic poetry he chanted in full is

And arabic is a rich language of synonyms. Lion can mean in arabic, Layth, Dirgham, Sab'e, Haydar, malik-el-ghabe, Asad and more.... As to Karrar it was a description given to him by the Prophet Muhammad and became stuck to his name Haydar. He said

لأعطين الراية غدا رجل كرار غير فرار يحب الله ورسوله ويحبه الله ورسوله لا يرجع حتى يفتح الله على يديه.

so Haydar by itself is not an epithet but his name. Haydar-el-Karrar, on the other hand, can be his epithet of invincible warrior.

Finally there is a shia book about him and his aliases. [9]

يعسوب المؤمنين, أبا تراب, ملك النحل الولي ، والوصي ، والتقي ، وقاتل الناكثين والقاسطين والمارقين ، وشبيه هارون ، وصاحب اللوى ، وخاصف النعل ، وكاشف الكرب ، وأبو الريحانتين ، وبيضة البلد ، وغيرها كثير

ومن ألقابه (3) أيضاً : المرتضى ، ونفس الرسول ، وأخوه ، وزوج البتول ، وسيف الله المسلول ، وأمير البررة ، وقاتل الفجرة ، وقسيم النار ، وصاحب اللواء ، وسيِّد العرب ، وكشَّاف الكرب ، والصدِّيق الأكبر ، والهادي ، والفاروق ، والداعي ، والشاهد ، وباب المدينة ـ أي مدينة العلم ـ وغرَّة المهاجرين ، والكرَّار غير الفرَّار ، والفقَّار ، وبيضة البلد.

and another shii book on that site: [10] and those are not web book but you can buy them in the Arabic World. Finally in the arab and Muslim World when you say Haydar-el-Karrar it means Ali bin Abi Talib. It is like general truth, kind of like the Earth is a sphere if you will. The Peace Worshipper^{Talk to TPW129.} 06:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I looked at that hadith, and the poetry sounds like a boast. "My mother named me 'Lion'". I don't find the epithet in Watt or Madelung. I don't find it in Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Sa'd, or Tabari. I can't read the Arabic that you give, so I'll wait for Green Giant to look at the cites but ... I doubt that this is a name rather than a epithet. Lion has been a traditional name for a brave warrior for millenia, long before Ali, and calling Ali a "Lion" after he distinguished himself in several battles seems like a natural development.

Moreover, your claim that Haydar was a name doesn't match what I know about Arabic names -- that someone would have had a "real" name and also perhaps a nickname. When someone married and had a child, then he or she could get a kunya, father or mother of so-and-so. Adults might decide to take a new name, and they might aquire nicknames. But I have never read of anyone who had two "real" names as a child. I think you're confusing name and epithet. Zora 11:13, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No the poetry is not a boast and the arabic references they report that Al-Jazri (Sunni) says that Fatima named him Haydar. There are many other references where it is mentioned that his mother named Haydar but I pointed to that specific one since it is one of the earliest mentions and by him and it is recorded by one of the most authentic sunni books to please you. Until these days it is not uncommon for a child to have two names one by his mother and another by his father. In fact it is very common to name someone after someone else and in addition give him/her another name. For example Fatima-tez-Zahra' can becaleld Fatima and Zahra' and I believe you are the one who compiled the first list List of Shi'a titles for Fatima Zahra. She was named Fatima after Fatima bin t Asad and Zahra is her given name by The Prophet. Moreover most early muslims have at least two names. The name s/he was called before Islam and the name after Islam. There are many people that say Muhammad is the one who named Ali rather than his father. The person can have a kuniya even before having a child or even after. Anything that has in it Abu or Umm is kuniya and not necessarily associated with a child unless it is his first name. By the way "Kuniya" in Arabic literaly means "indicative", thus came Ali's Kuniya Abu Turab while he got another kuniya later because of his son and that is Aba-l-Hasan, and he also called Abu al-Hasanain. Moreover in the Gulf countries the arabs have kuniya even for children who has not married yet. Besides more about Arabic names if anyone is named a compound name may people would call him by either names. For exampple, Abd-ul-Karim can be called Karim or Abd or both. If someone is named Ali-yl-Hadi he can be called Hadi or Ali or both. Does Watt and Madelung have a list of the epithet or name of Ali? Moreover Watt and Madelung are not necessarily the whole Islam inked. And believe me I am not confusing names and epithets and explained that well above. I donot trust that you looked in any I don't find it in Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Sa'd, or Tabari. And in all cases Sahih Muslim is considered more authentic for many muslims. I od not understand why you are making a big issue of it while no ne in the Arab or mulsim world has any problem with that. Please take my advice and befriend an Arab or Muslim and I am sure they will provide with quick references about these little things that we really should not be spending time on. The Peace Worshipper^{Talk to TPW129.} 16:30, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Haider had been a disambig page, but Striver moved most of the names over here and left it a disambig page for Haider only, with only one name, Jörg Haider. It seems to me that Haider should redirect here. Other names:

• Ali Haider, a Pakistani singer and actor
• Ali Haydar, a name adopted by scholar Thomas McElwain

I'd suggest before any additional reversions that there be more discussion, or else introduce mediation, perhaps WP:RFC. Шизомби 07:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Based on my understanding of disambiguation this is not a disambiguation page--these usually refer to several definitions that have the same or similar 'natural names' that people might otherwise confuse. I think this article is a list and I personally don't know whether it belongs in Wikipedia. If you don't think it belongs, I'd suggest referencing what wikipedia is not and What makes a good article Antonrojo 03:18, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A little more detail: My interpretation is that this list is similar to a list of honorifics. If these people share more than a name and form a category of some type (it looks like several people on the list got this as a nickname as a sign of bravery which sounds like an honorific to me), my inclination would be to leave it. On the other hand if it really is just a list of people who have the same name and aren't grouped together logically in some way (like a phone book) I think a disambiguation page would be correct. Antonrojo 03:55, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bro, call it what you want, but the info stays in the article. And trust me, nobody is going to let most of that to go into the Ali article. And anyway, we need a name article for this prominent name. --Striver 04:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You must realize this page and Haydar-e-l-Karrar have practically the same content. Do something about it, or this needs mediation..[OK I see it redirects to Haydar, but some mediation is needed here.] I don't think anyone would dispute that WP would benefit from more information about things relating to Islam, Shia, the middle east, etc. but it needs to be done thoughtfully. Esquizombi 01:08, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Haydar is both a name and a metaphor. It means Lion. There are a great many people throughout history who have been called the Lion of something or other, as praise. However, it is also given as a name, like Osama or Usama, which also means lion.

When Haydar is used as an epithet, it is usually combined with another word (the Lion of God, the Lion of Islam, the Lion of Correct Punctuation), or used in a narrowly specific context. No one person can claim to be THE Lion -- the metaphor is millenia-old.

So there might be an argument for starting an article on "Lion as epithet" and linking Haydar to that. But the page is most useful as a disambiguation page. Zora 01:40, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Striver, please stop reverting with only "see talk" remarks. You need to make some new additional input here as well as to why you're doing what you're doing. Esquizombi 06:02, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Zora's idea above sounded good, i support it. --Striver 14:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]