Wikipedia talk:Babel

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To help centralize discussions and keep related topics together, Wikipedia talk:Babel/Levels and Wikipedia talk:Babel/List redirect here.

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How is babel different from UserBoxes:Language? 62.254.8.124 (talk) 20:21, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What is UserBoxes:Language? The page doesn't exist. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:37, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty sure they meant Userboxes/Language. To attempt to answer the question, the difference is that userboxes need to use multiple templates (of which many are not serious and/or standardized and/or related to spoken language) whereas the Babel template allows a user to quickly type out the spoken languages which match their criteria of Babel/levels into a single template separated by "|" and the user doesn't have to search for each template individually, but fundamentally they fulfill the same function. Sebrana (talk) 00:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The general page has the line of "xx (no hyphen or number) for native-born speakers who use a language every day and have a thorough grasp of it, including colloquialisms and idioms. Note: We do not quibble about the "native-born" part; it's the "including colloquialisms and idioms" part that matters here." and yet the levels page does not mention that at all, which feels contradictory. In fact it actually lists basically the opposite, where several examples are mentioned only taking into account moving from X country to Y country, which the general page would say is less important compared to being able to understand cultural references and idioms. I suggest to insert the prior note from the general page under the xx-N section in the levels page to avoid confusion, is anyone against this? Sebrana (talk) 23:53, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edited :babel/levels in the relevant section to make up for it. Sebrana (talk) 00:29, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I speak Pontic Greek (pnt) as a heritage language, so I would probably want to put it on level 2 or 3, but anything except pnt-1 is not supported by the template. What is the procedure to remedy this? Konanen (talk) 12:14, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

{{#babel:pnt-2}} works for me.

* Pppery * _{it has begun...} 14:43, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is even weirder, because the pnt-2 tag reads EXACTLY the same as pnt-2, both say Ατός ο χρήστες καλατσέβ ολίγα Ποντιακά, see here:

Wikipedia:Babel
pnt-1 Ατός ο χρήστες καλατσέβ ολίγα Ποντιακά.
Search user languages

. Also, what is the difference between the two templates {{#babel:language_code}} and {{babel|language_code}}? Konanen (talk) 16:48, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I should have included a translation; both versions read “This user speaks a little bit of Pontic”. Konanen (talk) 16:52, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The text displayed by #babel comes from https://translatewiki.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Babel-1-n/pnt https://translatewiki.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Babel-2-n/pnt. Those two strings are not the same, although I don't speak Greek so can't tell whether they are correct. {{User pnt-1}}, which your first use is a wrapper around, has no technical connection to the translatewiki messages but displays a hardcoded local string.

#babel is mw:Extension:Babel. {{babel}} is a local template which predates the Babel extension and has no technical connection to it. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:17, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you kindly for the explanations and help! If I understand the mw:Extension:Babel site correctly, the local {{babel}} template is obsolete, or obsolescence is the goal for various reasons (“[...] replace the old Babel system [...]”). If that is indeed the case, I wonder if a reference or link to mw:Extension:Babel wouldn’t be prudent, or else why no mention is made of it in the article. Konanen (talk) 17:52, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've replied several times to posts on similar matters, see e.g. Wikipedia talk:Babel/Archive 4. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:56, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The template Template:User tok-5 used to say what was effectively the same thing as Template:User tok-4 did, and so many proficient speakers have used it on their userpages. However, level 5 is meant to signify a professional level in the language. When going through and updating the local versions of Toki Pona Babel templates to match mw:Extension:Babel's translations, I realized that quite a few users' pages now say that they have a professional level of Toki Pona proficiency / use it in their work. I know a few of those users off-wiki, and I know that most don't use the language professionally.

It would be redundant to have two templates with very similar messages, but leaving an inaccurate message on many userpages feels wrong. Anything that should be done? Ookap (talk) 10:47, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SamB and Ynhockey: The ordering was changed in 2014 for the apparently random reason "Rejigger some stuff". This was propagated here and elsewhere at {{user language subcategory}} in 2018. Did any expert source say that "professional is higher-level than simply native"? "1 2 3 4 N 5" looks just wrong.

c:Commons:Babel uses the common sense "1 2 3 4 5 N". It has been repeatedly discussed that the same system is used for all Wikimedia projects ... Since several hundred projects use the same system, we must not vary the system locally. A later edit here did not find the "rejigger"ed order the least bit natural, and neither does {{user x}}.

Let's restore the original, more reasonable order "1 2 3 4 5 N". 174.94.28.189 (talk) 00:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]