Talk:Alcoholic beverages

Please help enlarge this article with more mentions of drinks that are specialties of different countries, regions, and cities, so that we can make this a great travel topic and eventually feature it on the front page. Are any of you current or former bartenders? If so, please hold forth! Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

I don't think we should list countries where alcohol is illegal for Muslims but freely available for non-Muslims, because that list would be quite long, and would include places like Malaysia and Dubai. How available is alcohol to non-Muslims in Pakistan? If it's easily available, I think we should take Pakistan's name off the list of alcohol-prohibiting countries. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:01, 7 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

I think defer to Saqib on this question again :) Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:04, 8 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Yes legally, alcohol is only available only for non-Muslims but Muslims can have them too as easily as a non-Muslim. --Saqib (talk) 22:11, 8 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

Btw, even in United Arab Emirates, alcohol is free available to Muslims and its a no offence and I'm sure the situation is same in many other Muslim majority countries. How much is it matter if its legal or not? --Saqib (talk) 22:27, 8 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

It matters if it's prohibited to all. We can make a general comment that there are many Muslim countries that make it either illegal or otherwise difficult for Muslims to purchase alcohol, but I doubt it's important to go into detail about precisely how difficult it is for Muslims to buy cocktails in one of the United Arab Emirates as opposed to another emirate. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:29, 21 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

We could also mention that even in otherwise more "liberal" countries such as Turkey alcohol during Ramadan is at least frowned upon even if you are non-muslim (outside tourist resorts, that is) Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:08, 2 February 2015 (UTC)Reply

Sure. Absolutely mention it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:22, 2 February 2015 (UTC)Reply

I'm not up to starting a section on bars and pubs right now, but I think that in "Buy," there should be some mention of the variety of ways alcohol is served, not from a standpoint of local alcoholic drinks, but in terms of things like the differences between bars in Italy - where it's totally fine for a child to get breakfast - and in the United States - where people wanting to enter are typically carded, and anyone under 21 often will not be admitted at all; the fact that it is common in Britain and Ireland to have full, hearty meals at Pubs, along with ale or bitter, and similarly, this is often the case at Brauhäuser in Germany; the fact that there are sidrerias in Asturias that are dedicated cider bars - things like that. Remarks should be made about sake bars in Japan and tapas bars in Catalunya, etc. An alternate way to organize things would be to have an "Eat" section, where bars & grills and all the other types of bars that typically serve food to accompany the drinks would be mentioned. But even if so, it might make sense to briefly outline the different meanings and practices related to bars/pubs in different parts of the world, in terms of the degree of focus on alcohol vs. non-alcoholic drinks and food. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:29, 21 February 2014 (UTC)Reply

I did indeed type up such a section, but it's quite incomplete, and I think this is where we can help travelers most. Letting prospective travelers know what to expect, generally, in bars in different parts of the world is very useful to those who are interested in drinking culture, and sometimes its relationship to food. What are bars like in different parts of Africa? Are there bars specifically reserved for arak drinking in Lebanon? And are there bars in Qingdao that feature cuisine designed to be eaten with Tsingtao beer? These kinds of things are interesting, and I don't know anything about them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:31, 9 June 2014 (UTC)Reply

I added something for Korea that I hope is of interest. Andrewssi2 (talk) 12:57, 9 June 2014 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for that excellent contribution. One small side point on soju: Isn't it a distilled liquor? I think of rice wine as being lower in alcohol content, like sake. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:03, 9 June 2014 (UTC)Reply

You are right, it is a distilled liquor and not really like sake. I just find Koreans often refer to it as 'rice wine' in English, even though it isn't like sake or sometimes doesn't even use rice. I'll change the wording. Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:06, 10 June 2014 (UTC)Reply

Just some comments about this section regarding Tsingtao beer: "Qingdao, the city with the most famous brewery in China, that of Tsingtao beer, is another place where a cuisine of dishes that go well with the most popular local alcoholic drink has developed"

As far as I know, Qingdao does not have any special cuisine developed for beer. The beer is famous because it was developed by a German company during its colonial period. Chinese like their food (with a a good deal of justification) and their alcohol (perhaps less so) but I don't register a connection between them.

Also a pedantic point: Although Tsingtao is the most famous Chinese beer internationally, it is actually less popular than Snow beer w:Snow_beer. Snow beer is in fact the world's most popular beer despite it being only sold in China.

Hope this can help... --Andrewssi2 (talk) 11:14, 4 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

I guess I was operating under a misimpression. Deleted accordingly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:20, 5 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

...so that it can be nominated for Ftt? The article should "effectively cover most aspects of the topic with no obvious omissions.". Any suggestions? ϒpsilon (talk) 20:33, 20 February 2015 (UTC)Reply

Do we need a map similar to this one? --Saqib (talk) 13:44, 18 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

I was going to say that a map similar to that would fit better in the Beer article, but then I discovered that's an article about a town in Devon, and we don't have a separate article about beer. That being the case, sure.

To answer your question, ϒpsilon, I think a lot more coverage of places to drink (bars, pubs, Bräuhäuser, etc.) is needed. We need to let travellers know what kind of atmosphere, food and drink to expect in establishments dedicated to drinking in different parts of the world. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:59, 18 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

One thing that also could be added is events where alcoholic beverages play a central role like Munich's Oktoberfest. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:24, 18 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Good point. I agree. Would St. Patrick's Day qualify? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:26, 18 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Depends... In a sense you can't put a place on an event such as St. Petrick's day. Whereas the Oktoberfest takes place in a definitive place and time (Munich late September). On the other hand I could imagine somebody traveling to New York or Dublin to be there on St. Partick's day... Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:50, 18 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

There are actually no shortage of imitation Oktoberfests around the world! Some are semi-formal in places with German immigrant communities, and some are just a few Bavarian flags in a bar somewhere. Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:07, 19 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

There are places with particularly famous St. Patrick's Day parades. I actually thinks it does count. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:09, 19 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Brazil has some Oktoberfests in the southern, German heritage region which are famous nationally if not continent-wide. Texugo (talk) 03:07, 19 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

So what would qualify on this article as a suitably famous St Patrick's day parade or Oktoberfest? I know my sometimes hometown of Busan holds one, but I wouldn't say it is notable enough. Perhaps one per country with some exceptions for large Irish/German communities such as United States ? Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:37, 19 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

We do not need a special destination to mention such events. I suppose one might want to go to an Irish pub on St. Patrick's day in any location with a sizeable Irish population, and Beaujolais Nouveau (and the older, more widespread general habit of celebrating wine of the new crop) could be mentioned as part of wine culture. In fact, the article could use a lot of more info about the culture around different beverages. Think about somebody going to France from a country where wine is not commonly drunk – our article is not terribly useful, to put it mildly. The same with other beverages; we do not even mention toasts. --LPfi (talk) 07:23, 19 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Very good point. We should also mention sacramental use of alcohol. I wouldn't be amazed if we had readers from Muslim countries who aren't aware that Jews and Christians use alcohol sacramentally. It also might not be widely known that sake is used sacramentally in Shinto ceremonies, including weddings. So yes, a lot of work remains to do on this article, if we want people to have some sense of how alcohol is drunk and used in social and religious situations by different peoples in different parts of the world. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:02, 19 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

I added a little bit about sacramental wine and sake and positive attitudes toward alcohol among European Christians, but I think the "Respect" section is missing an intro. I'll try writing one. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:17, 19 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Well all regions and religions have "their" ritual drug... Unfortunately Christianity has imposed its drug and outlawed (almost) all others... Anyway back to topic. I know that there is a huge tradition surrounding Bierkeller and Biergärten in southern Germany, particularly Franconia and Bavaria. One of the more peculiar things that travellers are usually unaware of is that you are allowed to bring your own food in many of them (especially in rural areas) and the fact that while there technically is a limit to your blood alcohol when cycling, it is rarely if ever enforced. Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:23, 19 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

I don't think Islam has its own ritual drug; instead, it's a teetotaling religion. When I lived in rural Malaysia, my neighbors found the idea of sacramental alcohol disgusting. True, some of them were regular users of betelnut and many of them smoked, but none of that was for religious purposes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:43, 20 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

I don't know whether it is local bias, but I think German beer culture is a topic about which a lot can be said (from the diverse nature of Volksfeste such as that in Canstatt or the other one in München or the variety of smaller ones, to the uniquely German invention of Bierkeller and Biergärten to many other things that I don't know about right now) and yet next to nothing is said about it in this article just now. Should information on this topic go a) in the Germany article b) go into local/regional or city articles (such as information on Bierkeller into any article from Stiebarlimbach to Muggendrof) c) Be split of into another article entirely d) not be mentioned at all? Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:14, 19 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

I think the German beer culture has influenced the beer culture around the globe, and is thus better handled here. But is there a uniquely German beer culture, or should we talk about the Middle European beer culture? --LPfi (talk) 20:01, 19 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

I'd think yes and no... Some aspects (like Volksfeste) seem to have globalized, while others have - even though they are bound to have existed elsewhere in the past - pretty much stayed in Germany or even parts of Germany, such as Bierkeller. If you have once been to a Bierkeller, I doubt you could say such a thing authentically exists outside of a region comprising parts of Southern Germany. Other things such as family run restaurants on the countryside where you get your Radler with your Schnitzel may or may not be a more Middle European thing, though... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:17, 19 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

User:Wyote just made some great additions to this article. I'm wondering whether some of them should be moved to different sections. Makgeolli is merely brewed, not distilled, correct? Is it similar enough to sake to belong in the "Wine" section? Samhaeju is distilled liquor, though, is it not? In which case, it belongs just where it is. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:40, 11 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

I'm sorry, you're right. I didn't pay attention. I'll move it.... Wyote (talk) 08:06, 11 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

No reason to be sorry. But is samhaeju a distilled liquor? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:34, 11 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

Ordinary samhaeju is a variation of soju (sometimes called "samhae soju," it is soju made from "samhae yakju") but a different product of the brewing process can be used to make samhae makgeoli as well. There is also a "samhae moju" made from samahe makgeoli, which seems to be analogous to a fortified wine. I haven't tried that, but I will try to find out more about that. Also, I could be wrong about any of this, and it's also possible (maybe even likely) that Koreans from different parts of Korea use similar or the same terms to mean different things. Please let me know if you have different information. I'd love to get to the bottom of it. Wyote (talk) 09:49, 11 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

I really don't know. I've never tried samhaeju, but I do like to drink soju. If the more or less default version of samhaeju is a distilled liquor, it should probably be covered in that section. I'll move it there for now, and maybe some of the other Korea mavens on this site will have more to say in time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:03, 11 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

Lately, some edits have seemed to move this article toward being entirely in British English. I don't see an important reason or justification for this. It seems to me, when specifically British beverages are being covered, such as Scotch whisky, it makes no sense to force American spellings (in this case, whiskey), but otherwise, why do things like change practice to practise? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:45, 8 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

I concur. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:01, 8 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

According to http://www.grammar-monster.com/easily_confused/practice_practise.htm "Whilst many in the US have adopted practise as the verb and practice as the noun, it is acceptable to use practice for both noun and verb in American English." (my emphasis added).

Since Alcoholic beverages is a travel topic that does not relate exclusively to subjects linked to a particular national flavor of English, my understanding of our policy is that it should be written in U.S. English.

This may interest: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=practiced%2Cpractised&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=5&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cpracticed%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cpractised%3B%2Cc0 since it shows that the "s" version has been steadily declining in U.S. English. However, although it looks to be becoming an endangered species, it is no more extinct than the bald eagle.

BushelCandle (talk) 22:24, 8 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

I occasionally see "whilst" in the US, where we consider it quaint, but I _never_ see "practise", which looks all wrong to me (and incidentally, has a wavy red line below it from Spellchecker, but that's not by any means always reliable). Trust me on this: I'm a professional musician who knows something about practicing and reads that word more often than most other people, except I guess lawyers and doctors. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:33, 8 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

I trust you. BushelCandle (talk) 22:41, 8 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

The text of this article currently contrasts schnapps (in its American sense) as a sweet beverage from other non-sweet licors. However, it goes on to say that schnapps is German, which might cause confusion as Schnaps (sic!) is simply a generic term for any high alcohol distilled beverage. I don't know how to resolve this elegantly, but I wanted to point this out. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:44, 4 March 2016 (UTC)Reply

The current quote, while quite clever (in an irritating F. Scott Fitzgerald-ish way) could be replaced by a quote suggested at Talk:Eat by User:Bigpeteb, which is more travel-related:

What say you? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:18, 26 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Why not, overall Bourdain is a good source for quotes when it comes to eating and drinking travel topics. --Ypsilon (talk) 19:43, 26 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Bourdain was hilarious, but this is not necessarily good advice, so I'm reluctant to sign off on it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:50, 26 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

If Fitzgerald went to 'Stay safe', would that make you less reluctant? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:17, 26 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

No. My problem is specifically with this quote. Drinking heavily with locals can put you in danger in some places. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:21, 26 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

I like the Fitzgerald one better—I think it's funny. I would be okay with including both, but I share Ikan Kekek's concern that drinking heavily with the locals is only good advice if safety is assured. —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:34, 27 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Fair enough, let's keep the Fitzgerald one.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:59, 27 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Are there regions where a traveler is likely to encounter either of the above, albeit outside of appropriately licensed premesis?

'Moonshine' whilst still typically ethanol based may not necessarily be under the normal quality control, whereas meths (methanol) has serious side effects, see w:Methanol_toxicity ? —The preceding comment was added by ShakespeareFan00 (talk • contribs)

Anytime you try home-made booze, you have to be careful. I wouldn't worry about artisanal limoncello in Italy, but someone's fire-water in a remote location could be an issue. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:47, 27 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

So how do we say this in the article ? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:42, 27 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

Do you want to post a draft here? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:43, 28 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

There is currently an infobox at Alcoholic_beverages#Stay_healthy. Improve it? Delete it as unnecessary? Pashley (talk) 13:04, 3 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

The infoboxes are good, except that I think "People have killed themselves by tossing back too many shots too quickly." should not be bolded. Most people are not going to read this article for warnings like that, but I think we needn't treat them with the disrespect needed to bold the statement. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:23, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

I have seen a claim that anthropologists have found only three things that exist in different forms in all human cultures: language. an incest taboo, and brewing alcohol. A simple web search did not turn up confirmation. Does anyone know more? Pashley (talk) 15:14, 2 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

In ancient Egypt, Pharaohs married their sisters, so I don't think incest taboos, at least those extending to siblings, have been universal. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:24, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Does this article really need a cautionbox?

Seems like a case of "Captain Obvious" uselessly reiterating drivel for the politically correct crowd.

Deleting it would improve the article. Mrkstvns (talk) 17:05, 2 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Mrkstvns: I'm not sure what you mean. Around here "cautionbox" usually refers to Template:Cautionbox, which doesn't currently appear in this article. Do you mean the two infoboxes in the "Stay healthy" section? —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:11, 2 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Looks like they've been changed to infoboxes (Thanks, Pashley!) I swear I haven't been drinking (yet!)... Mrkstvns (talk) 17:21, 2 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

I don't think a discussion of health effects is balanced if it only focuses on drunkenness and excessive consumption. There is ample evidence that moderate drinking is part of a "healthy" lifestyle. A balanced discussion is provided by Mayo Clinic here. Mrkstvns (talk) 14:41, 3 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

The linked page states up front, as summary: "Moderate alcohol use has possible health benefits, but it's not risk-free." It continues to say that the studies cannot reliable distinguish causality from correlation, and that "Any potential benefits of alcohol are relatively small and may not apply to all individuals. [...] no one should begin drinking alcohol or drink more often on the basis of potential health benefits."

I think it is enough for us to say that there may be some benefits.

–LPfi (talk) 11:20, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Drinking may be part of a healthy lifestyle, but there is no evidence that a sober lifestyle cannot be as healthy. –LPfi (talk) 11:21, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'm a teetotaler and concur with LPfi. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 12:58, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

The link between lifestyle and health is complex and drinking is typically only a small part of the total picture. In the myriad articles about the "French Paradox" (in which French people seem to get away with eating a high-fat diet without suffering lower life expectancy), it's frequently attributed to a combination of moderate drinking of RED wine coupled with a diet that excludes a lot of the "bad" foods of a typical American diet (soft drinks, processed sugars, high fructose corn syrup, deep fried foods, etc.) There's likely no advice about drinking that will hold true for every person's situation. Mrkstvns (talk) 16:14, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

By the way, I'm okay with LPfi's re-write of the paragraph. Mrkstvns (talk) 16:16, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

From what I've been seeing this year, the evidence for red wine being helpful is crumbling. No amount of alcohol is safe. A small amount, occasionally, may not have clinical significance. One drink per day is generally held to be harmful now. One drink per week might have small but statistically measurable harm. One drink per month might not be measurable.

That said, there actually is advice about drinking that will hold true for everyone: If you don't drink it, it can't hurt you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:21, 26 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I assume that some travellers will get in company that drink more heavily than they are used to, including travellers who never or seldom drink at home and haven't been exposed to bulge drinking. I added a warning to look out for friends who get drunk and especially those who get unconscious, but I think more specific advice might be warranted. However, I don't know what to say. –LPfi (talk) 10:49, 26 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

There is an infobox titled "Lethal dose" at Alcoholic_beverages#Stay_healthy. Is it correct? (I think so.) Does it need more? Pashley (talk) 20:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

The lowest fatal dose I have seen reported was small woman celebrating a birthday & dying after taking 11 shots quickly. Pashley (talk) 20:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

The lethal dose is probably correct (Finnish spirits used to be sold in 500 ml bottles for that reason), and 11 shots feels a lot for a small woman, definitely more than they should drink in a row.

I am thinking of something different: what should you do when your friend gets severely drunk, perhaps unconscious. Can you go to bed yourself in that situation? Should you move them to a better position? At what point should you call an ambulance?

–LPfi (talk) 06:54, 27 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I don't know if we should give that kind of medical advice. Beyond mentioning dangerous symptoms, I think all we could say is if you think a friend might be in medical danger, call an ambulance. But that's really captain obvious, isn't it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

If you realise that they are, sure. But when should you regard them as being in lethal danger? If they get unconscious after having taken a lot of shots in a row, or emptied a bottle of something strong, probably you should. I don't think giving that advice is against our policy on medical advice. Saying that somebody is OK if they got unconscious in other circumstances, that's the advice we should avoid. –LPfi (talk) 10:01, 27 November 2024 (UTC)Reply