User talk:Atsme/Archive 35

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Seems the new year starts out with various bad news, including the apparent extinction[1] of the Chinese paddlefish... All I know about paddlefish is from reviewing your American paddlefish GAN. Perhaps the Chinese one could warrant expansion as a tribute? But truly sad... Did you ever see one? FunkMonk (talk) 13:14, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Sad news, indeed FunkMonk. It stirred memories of my days as a liaison in GeoCities' Rainforest, and some of the stories I shared about Martha, which really struck a sympathetic chord with me. 😢 Extinction is a grim reality with a permanence that too few take time to conceptualize. I paid close attention to both keystone and ancestral species back when I was producing nature programming for PBS and international distribution. During the International Sturgeon Conference in Manhatten (1994), Bill Murray quoted a famous biologist/explorer/author whose words ring eternal. I tried hard to maintain some level of optimism despite the writing on the wall, and what so many biologists knew would be the inevitable fate of Chinese paddlefish. Crucial habitat (Yangzte River) had been destroyed beyond repair; a predictable side effect of unsustainable human development. Unfortunately, I have not seen a live Chinese paddlefish, much less one in its natural environment. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 18:24, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Wow, that Bill Murray appearance came as a surprise! Always nice to see when somewhat obscure causes have a broader appeal. In many cases it is just too late, and in the current climate, I don't exactly have high hopes... Maybe it's an illusion, but I hope writing articles here about extinct and endangered species may help in some sense. FunkMonk (talk) 11:03, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Not an illusion, FunkMonk - every bit helps. My decades old slogan is “Dedication to conservation through information and education.” Back when I was producing Water Sports Weekly, a weekly cable sports program about everything on, under and in the water, I did a show about bowfishing for alligator gar. That show led to a career away from cable & commercial television where I could focus on producing educational programs (PBS), beginning with the first ever televised program about alligator gar. Imagine a television special about animals that didn’t include an African safari or a trip down under, and the star of the show wasn’t a warm & fuzzy critter with big eyes! My initial proposal was a culture shock to several executive programmers who initially turned it down. It’s all about timing, tenacity, meeting the right people and never giving up. Cutting to the chase: the gar program was televised nationally, (received a #1 Nielsen rating in primetime during July sweeps) was watched by multi-millions, led to a mini-series that ran for 2 years, and was eventually broadcast internationally. The alligator gar eventually gained respect by resource agencies.

Surprisingly, in the years that followed, my mini-series (Exotic and Unusual Fishes) attracted the interest of Nat Geo, Animal Planet, Discovery, etc. (I licensed a lot of footage to them), which meant more exposure for ancestral fish species. My efforts with help from friends I made at KUHT, WKNO and APS provided the exposure needed for me to lay the groundwork for a new style of programming that made ugly, relatively unknown fish species and a few other rather obscure endangered species appeal to large viewing audiences. In retrospect, I wish more funding could have been made available so I could have shot it on film like The Undersea World of Jacques Cousteau, or NOVA, or Nat Geo but the video format I used (Betacam with some DVM) passed broadcast standards so it aired. The series also attracted the attention of Al-jazeera television who wanted me to setup their environmental unit but that’s another story I reserve for loose lipped discussions during Happy Hour. 😂🍻🍺

Anyway, the intent of this rather drawn-out approach is to impress upon you and maybe even some of my tp watchers that it is not an illusion to believe our WP articles can actually help make the public more aware of endangered species, critical habitat and human encroachment. If I can do it, anyone can, and I certainly encourage it. The page views for Alligator gar from 7/1/2015 - 1/8/2020 = 1,345,042 pageviews (814/day). While it is less than what a single broadcast in a metroplex might generate on PBS, it is still exposure, and why I have always believed in the importance of education, getting our articles right and investing the extra effort to get them promoted to GA/FA status. Happy editing, my wikifriend!! ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:07, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for these insights, which is motivating both on and off-Wiki. In "real life" I also want to do some work in this vein; I am an animator and mainly work on commercial, non-educational projects, but hopefully I can get some of my natural history interests worked into future projects. Your jump from sports to nature programming is certainly inspiring in that regard! FunkMonk (talk) 18:08, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

FunkMonk - you're going to get a kick out of this!! I laughed so hard, I was tearing up!! I just opened an email from YouTube warning me of a potential copyvio. Apparently, NatGeo reported me to YouTube, alleging that I violated their copyright by using alligator gar footage from "Hooked: Vampire Fish" in my video "Alligator Gar: Predator or Prey?" 😂😂😂 I guess the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing over there, or that the footage in their Hooked episode was what they licensed from me under a non-exclusive license. Oh, the timing!! The ink is still wet on our discussion. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 18:26, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

You gotta love those automated media recognition systems Youtube uses these days, I also read that they flag out of public domain recordings of music as copyright violations... In your case, I think you can actually dispute their claims... Your case also reminds me of something I discovered recently while expanding the Segnosaurus article. Here is a drawing[2] I made of that dinosaur for Wikipedia back in 2008, and here is a video[3] of a life-sized puppet used for a UK theatre production. There are some similarities between them that seem like more than coincidences to me... So Wikipedia work may influence the "real world" pretty directly after all. FunkMonk (talk) 18:40, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

FunkMonk - love your artwork, and yes, I do see the similarities. Just curious...which of the images on the right represent the type of work you do as an animator? ^Atsme _Talk 📧 15:41, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I think the closest match would be the last one, as I mainly do 3D computer animation these days... But I also draw a lot, of course. FunkMonk (talk) 05:51, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

OMG! That is amazing, FunkMonk!! WOW!! Now don't laugh at me, but I go back to the days of Amiga computers (Commodore) when we had to construct 3D objects before they could be animated, and the process took days, weeks or even months - and required multiple machines rendering graphics!! The opening segment of Sturgeon: Ancient Survivors - the part where the world spins in - is something I constructed from scratch, including the 3D globe. Then I had to time everything so that North America spun around in the proper position during the timed sequence. Ugh!! It was one of my early animations, long before the software was created to automate the construction of 3D graphics, nevermind the paths or whatever it was called back then for the object to travel on. I have forgotten so much!! I envy you and what you're able to do now! Perhaps you could do a presentation at the next WikiCon? ^Atsme _Talk 📧 06:09, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Wow, so you're an animator as well! And I also see you use some paleoart by the great Doug Henderson (artist) in the beginning of the documentary, good choice (he is still widely respected among dinosaur artists today, I grew up gawking at books he illustrated)! You've really had a hands on approach to all aspects of the documentary, that seems pretty rare. I'd say it is much more impressive what could be accomplished with computer animation back then, because these days a lot of the technical stuff is just handed to us. But the look of early 3D animation is actually getting trendy these days, I guess due to the 80s/90s nostalgia phase we're currently in. Heh, I guess it depends on where the next Wikicon is, I'm in Scandinavia! FunkMonk (talk) 06:55, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

I wouldn't go that far 😁, FunkMonk. I'm not even on this planet close to what you are capable of doing. I have a very basic understanding (as in, Disney animation art cell basics with a splash of computer knowledge) but adapt easily to most newfangled inventions (software) - actually wrote a bit of js back in the day - and can also work on Mac innards, and some of the old dinosaur video tape machines that used 3/4", Betacam and mini-DV formats - all of which I still have from my retired edit suite. They now clutter the game room.

I'm also happy to know that you're an admin on Commons!! I added one of my favs from your uploads - there are so many incredible images - thanks for sharing. Re: the exposure WP/Commons provides along with our other efforts in creating/improving articles on WP are important. There are times when I've questioned why on earth we tolerate some of the indignities we encounter across a wide range of articles from time to time (mostly on rare occasion)<– learned that from Yogi Berra – but there will always be disputes - and I've digressed, so back on point. The general public is hungry for factual, scientifically-based information and related materials. A while back, I did some informal statistical research to get a feel of how much impact, if any, my efforts may have had, or if such impacts were even measurable. I was surprised to learn the numbers that showed-up in the Google searches, and the variety of formats and venues. I'm sure there are more that did not show up because of the timing of those productions/broadcasts pre-dating so much of what is available on the internet today. There is some monetary value to our volunteer work (equivalent in value to a $$ donation to WMF) but there is far more educational value that we cannot put a price on...especially if, in some small way, we are contributing to saving an entire species. Following are a few small examples of how some of the information I've provided has been circulated over the years:

1. Cornell 2 citations of interest: 9 - Christopher Letts, excerpt from Sturgeon: Ancient Survivors of the Deep, Earthwave Productions, 1995 also available at http://www.earthwave.org/sturgeon.htm and 11 – Wikipedia on Sturgeon, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon.
2. NOVA, credits - images - sometimes show up in the least likely places. (FF to 2:48) 🤣
3. Your Week
4. Science Friday (2 squid images, the one in the header not credited, a minor downside)
5. Berkeley CRScience - America's Crayfish: Crawling In Troubled Waters - that same program (co-produced with Virginia Tech) was recently licensed for hosting at a password protected site for a program that was developed at the Lawrence Hall of Science, UC Berkeley, with funding from the Ntl. Science Fndtn. The materials are distributed by School Specialty Science/Delta Education.

Be inspired. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 17:25, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

When you say Disney animation, do you mean you draw as well? And yeah, there's no denying that Wikipedia articles have a huge influence, as it seems many people look here before they check the classic encyclopaedias. After all, a complete Wikipedia article holds more information than your usual encyclopaedia entry, simply becaus we have more space. And in many cases, Wikipedia articles about some (often obscure) subjects are actually the most comprehensive treatments around. So it is pretty satisfying to know what we're doing may be the definitive sources of information in some cases, and the imagery we choose for the articles will visually define the subjects for many people. By the way, the first article I expanded for FAC about an endangered animal was Echo parakeet, and interestingly, within the year it was promoted, it was downgraded to vulnerable. So there are some good news once in a while... FunkMonk (talk) 11:15, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

The only thing I can draw is water from a well. My artistic creativity is limited to what I see through the lens of a camera and can fix later in Photoshop. FunkMonk, thank you for the excellent work you did on Echo parakeet! I was unaware of the Mascarene Islands until now, or that such a parakeet even existed. I just watched a YouTube video about the islands and also found this travel blog, and the islands are now on my bucket list. I'm of the mind that there simply hasn't been enough emphasis on the harmful effects of deforestation, Scientific American, The Guardian, NYTimes but like AP2, it's one of those controversial topic areas I'd rather avoid. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 14:32, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Ah, many of the articles I've brought to FAC have been about extinct Mascarene birds; I'm sure you've heard of one of them, the dodo of Mauritius. I'd also like to go there, though I fear it would be too depressing, as much of the nature there has been destroyed or degraded. But it could be cool to go fossil hunting there as well, a few of the birds from there, such as the mysterious Réunion swamphen, are only known from old written accounts... FunkMonk (talk) 22:03, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Am not aware of the dodo of Mauritius, but am familiar with the Galapagos dodo booby. I dove Shark Island which is only 466 miles from the Galapagos Islands. It was quite the adventure. I recently learned about the White-throated rail on Aldabra - looks like its rebirth was an immaculate conception after having gone extinct. I included a link to the May 2019 CNN article for anyone who hasn't seen it. There's a little over 1300 miles between Aldabra and Mascarene, and both have Madagascar in common. Looks like a 6 month photo adventure may be on the horizon. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 23:51, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Hmmm, only Mascarene birds have been called dodos, so I wonder if there has been a slip up? The Galapagos islands have their famous finches, tortoises, and marine iguanas, and both island groups are notable for showing the interesting things that can happen when species evolve in isolation on islands. I certainly envy your trip there, I had an amazing Time Life book mainly about the Galapagos islands and Darwin's development of evolutionary theory which I still look through from time to time, great photos and artwork... FunkMonk (talk) 08:32, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Apologies, FunkMonk - I conflated two different thoughts - I meant Galapagos booby not dodo. Ha! It's kinda funny because of our non-ornithological application of those two words - I was both. 😂 When speaking of Galapagos, I can't help but think of Cocos Island when I was shooting the Okeanos Aggressor promo. We crossed paths with the NOVA IMAX crew who were there shooting "Island of the Sharks". I couldn't get over the size of their underwater cameras & housings and how lit-up the ocean was with all the u/w lights. I saw the movie at an IMAX theater and it was exceptional. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 09:22, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Hehe, I was just conflating some copyright things on this very page too; the Danish name of the Eurasian bullfinch is "dompap", which sounds like "dumb cardboard", so I'll be one of those... I think I'll have a marathon of your nature movies one of these days, so much stuff to dive into! FunkMonk (talk) 18:58, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Enjoy, Mr. FunkMonk! They are less entertaining than educational - after the initial airing, PBS affiliates used them during their call-in fund raisers. I've been seriously thinking about producing a few more "nature specials" over the next few years...maybe do some half-hour updates to the hour-long programs. I've got hours and hours of underwater footage that hasn't been used. I'm thinking an "around the USA" adventure this year or next. I still have my big Sony broadcast camera and can use it as a studio cam or put a DVCam back on it and away we go! I've also thought about uploading better quality videos to replace the lower rez videos I initially uploaded to YouTube but life keeps getting in the way. Oh, and if you have a way to access YouTube on your TV, you can watch them with your sleep-timer set so the TV turns off if/when you fall asleep while watching them! ^Atsme _Talk 📧 14:38, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Sounds cool with such "special editions", maybe even an addendum about the Chinese paddlefish could be added. Don't think I'd fall asleep, I tend to watch films and documentaries while eating dinner, hehe... FunkMonk (talk) 10:21, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Atsme, may I download your life experiences and skills? You're a very interesting person. I'd love to share a few dozen beers with you. I love your pictures. Simply beautiful. -- BullRangifer (talk) 23:58, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Awww...you are such a sweetie, BR...but I don't think you'd like me after a few dozen beers - I'd probably be snoring after the...uhm...6th. WP is an open platform so you don't need my permission for anything. I was outed several years ago, so anything/everything I've said, done, implied or uploaded, especially on WP, is free to the public - and for that I should probably extend my global apologies. What led to my outing was actually a newbie mistake (and I'm not the first or last newbie editor who made such a mistake) but thankfully, oversight/admins/arbcom have long since tightened up on it in an effort to prevent it from happening to others. Quite frankly, outing actually worked out better for me than I imagined it would - I can actually be me - although, the latter may not be viewed as a positive to some on WP. 😂 BR, I wish you only the best in your personal endeavors, you are good person with a big heart, true to your convictions, and a strong man when faced with RL challenges - you know why I know that about you. As for me, I am but a tiny pebble on the infinite beach of life. And don't think for one minute that life is not a beach. 😂 ❤️ ^Atsme _Talk 📧 03:00, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/Community view before Friday.

Only 100 or so words. It should be fun and serious at the same time.

All the best,

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 01:44, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

I'll try, Smallbones, but I need a bigger window of opportunity. RL has been all-consuming this month.^Atsme _Talk 📧 03:00, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Hello Atsme, I'm writing to you because yuor nmae is in the list of the "WikiProject Dogs" and you're one of the last still active. There's a discussion you might be interested in, here. I'd be glad to know your opinion about this matter, so I hope that you'll read the thread I opened. Thank you in advance if you decide to join. 151.64.168.204 (talk) 08:32, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi, if you have OTRS permission could you check to see the birth date mentioned in VRTS ticket # 2016051310004058 cited in the infobox. Currently there's disruptive editing going on and I cannot point point out which one is the original version. I think 1980 is too old for her. 2409:4073:49D:E5B4:AC2E:378F:D3E6:B0A8 (talk) 09:15, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

The correct date is shown in the infobox - 05/05/1089. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 09:54, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

To my tp watchers who may be interested in what's going on underwater from one perspective: Chasing Coral - search Netflix. I just want to add that El Niño is and always has been a factor, and it has been occuring for thousands of years. See Coral bleaching which is a normal occurrence but there are extenuating circumstances to consider as they may influence how quickly corals recover, if/when indeed they do. Keep in mind that this type of underwater research is relatively new considering coral reefs first appeared some 485 million years ago. On Bonaire, what we've found to be an immediate danger to the coral reefs that fringe our little island, in addition to natural occurrences, is human activity. People who are unfamiliar with the undersea world tend to think that the removal/introduction of fish & other marine species will have no negative effect on the delicate balance of an aquatic ecosystem, or that they can dump anything into the ocean and it will simply disappear, or perhaps they just don't care (out of sight-out of mind). ^Atsme _Talk 📧 15:39, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

You big greeney!!!--MONGO (talk) 21:35, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

^Atsme _Talk 📧 10:06, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for going to Talk:International Loadstar. You were the outside POV I was hoping for. Sammy D III (talk) 22:29, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

What's right is right, Sammy D III - happy to know consensus went where it should. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 18:32, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Fast Company - I think the author nailed it! ^Atsme _Talk 📧 21:08, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Nice job, Miss Betty! I hope you become media's go-to for WP-coverage. petrarchan47คุก 01:05, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Friendly warning: I reverted your edit on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard because it was a blatant personal attack. I know that you know better. If not, please review WP:NPA. Thanks. ~Anachronist (talk) 06:06, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

@Axl Matulić, " a blatant personal attack"? Really, you must be hypersensitive. Betty could never be accused of doing that.
"Friendly warning" ... get a life! Gareth Griffith-Jones (contribs) (talk) 09:55, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

For my tpw who may be interested in this totally unnecessary dramah, the comment in question is here, and I now feel that I have been personally attacked by an admin over a wrongful accusation. Guy and I have exchanged friendly banter for years, and I even added the ^[FBDB] template. He picks at me like he did here about something he misinterpreted about my intentions that took place 5 years ago, and I occasionally pick back. Axl Matulić, you also misinterpreted my intentions - that comment was not a blatant PA. I won't hold my breath, but an apology would be a nice gesture. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 10:08, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm happy to apologize if Guy agrees it's warranted, but until then, no, don't hold your breath, and don't expect others to know the personal history you have with others here. A disparaging comment purely on the contributor, and not on the arguments made, is inappropriate regardless of how you tag it. RSN isn't a private message board. ~Anachronist (talk) 21:00, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

YMMV but don't look like a "blatant personal attack" to me.--MONGO (talk) 21:10, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Doesn't look like a personal attack to me. The ^[FBDB] should of been your first clue. Do not remove other's comments again. PackMecEng (talk) 21:11, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Not a personal attack, let alone blatant attack, but it was against an admin, so there's that. I had a personal attack against me at AN for days and nobody did anything about it, I even emailed admins about it and they were like "yeah, it's bad I can see why you wouldn't like it." But it's still there. Anyway, this? Not an attack. I suggest you apologize to Atsme. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 21:15, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Examples of "blatant personal attacks" courtesy of our pal, Shakespeare...."Away, you starvelling, you elf-skin, you dried neat’s-tongue, bull’s-pizzle, you stock-fish!" or..."I scorn you, scurvy companion"...or "The rankest compound of villainous smell that ever offended nostril"...or "Thou clay-brained guts, thou knotty-pated fool, thou whoreson obscene greasy tallow-catch!"...or the most excellent..."Thou leathern-jerkin, crystal-button, knot-pated, agatering, puke-stocking, caddis-garter, smooth-tongue, Spanish pouch!"--MONGO (talk) 21:26, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

• Very disconcerting to see Anachronist dig in despite commenting in that same discussion after he deleted my response to Guy, who actually solicited our thoughts. I simply obliged with a bit of levity. Not long after Anachronist deleted my comment, he posted his position which was opposite mine. Hmmm...see WP:INVOLVED. This does not look good. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 21:30, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Dig in? Atsme, you didn't post a position on the source at all, you just commented on Guy.

Sir Joseph: I didn't realize that Guy is an admin, but that isn't relevant.

OK, if the consensus is that it wasn't an NPA violation, then it wasn't. I understand the reasoning above and I apologize.

PackMecEng: From my POV, the FBDB tag is irrelevant. Want to know why? Having lived in the southern US for much of my life, I view that tag in the same context as the southern US tradition of adding "bless your heart" to an insult, which doesn't make it any better. An inappropriate comment is still an inappropriate comment no matter how you dress it up. Especially on a public noticeboard. ~Anachronist (talk) 21:36, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Well that is not how it is used on Wikipedia and please AGF. Thank you. PackMecEng (talk) 21:42, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

• I'm not going to dwell on this any longer, and will end my participation in it by saying the things Anachronist said to/about me were very hurtful, especially the bless your heart comment. His non-apology will fit nicely on the heap with the other non-apologies I've received over the years. Isn't WP a wonderful place to devote one's time and energy? I can only hope that the heartfelt responses to his actions by my tpw & myself will hit home, and perhaps help this trusted admin to see why his actions were criticized. Yes, I was raised in Texas, lived my adult life as a Texas rancher, gave birth to ^{in the local hospital} and raised my children and grandchildren on that same ranch. When I express my heartfelt feelings toward someone, I MEAN WHAT I SAY. I have never faked a sarcasm in my life. ^{Sorry, but I had to inject a bit of levity because I'm a bit teary-eyed right now and need to change the mood.} I will close with the following diffs demonstrating Anachronist's revert of my comment followed by his own comment about the same topic at RSN. Look at the times - a short 16 minutes between edits - and let it all soak-in when you read WP:INVOLVED:

Deleted my comment 01:03, March 23, 2020, and posted his 01:19, March 23, 2020. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 22:02, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

INVOLVED applies if I was already involved before I removed your comment. I was looking at RSN for other reasons, saw your comment, then got interested enough in the topic to respond after removing it. After that I noticed that Guy had already removed a citation to that comment in an article I had edited, which I guess makes me involved sort of after the fact.

For what it's worth, I believe you sincerely meant no harm, and I do apologize that my response to misunderstanding your comment came off as hurtful. At the same time, I hope you understand my position, which I still hold, that personal comments about other editors are inappropriate on a public noticeboard. Honestly, that's how your comment appeared to me. ~Anachronist (talk) 23:19, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Example of a PA from one of my fans! [4]--MONGO (talk) 14:38, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

OMG, MONGO!! That is terrible!! Well, it is a relief to know that Anachronist realized I sincerely meant no harm - thank you for the acknowledgement and apology, Anachronist. You are a good person, and a fine admin. I realize that we are all going to believe whatever it is we choose to believe and that we often react to first impressions. I sincerely hope that you and I both will make good use of this experience. I expressed an opinion which is quite clear by my choice of words. I politely responded (with a bit of levity) to the question raised by the OP regarding his opinion re: the suitability of a source. The OP began with "I don't think..." and ended with "What do others think?" My response was also an opinion, "I think you may not be paying close enough attention..." It was a valid and reasonable response to his question and the proposal he presented for discussion. Could it have been worded better? Meh - perhaps, but at that point in time, my concerns had peaked and I sometimes resort to levity under such circumstances, especially after reading the last sentence in this comment, which basically ignores the consensus reached at RSN. If you will scroll down a few sections after your comment, you will see that I began a new section - Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Concerns_over_scope_of_RS/N - to express my concerns about WP:RS, the scope of RSN and potential for POV creep. And now I will refer you to Atsme's law and wish you a safe and happy rest of the day! ^Atsme _Talk 📧 14:41, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

I came here to tell you thank you for your evidence, that I know how hard it is to revisit this and that I admire you for doing so. thank you. I also think you forgot to sign it there! I could be wrong, but it might be prudent to check! Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:13, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind words, Jen. You're right about the sig - silly me. I'll fix that now and save the clerks from having to clean-up after me. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 20:21, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi Atsme! I'm looking for some article writing help, and unfortunately for you, your userpage says that you've got one or two good/featured articles to your name. I'm trying to get a little experience with this whole "article writing" thing (to counterbalance the...uh...many, many speedy deletion requests I've made), and I'd like to try to bring Willa Brown to GA status; I saw a Civil Air Patrol profile on her today and I was astounded to see that someone with at least three "first African-American woman to X" credits is only a B-class article. What I could really use is feedback on what improvements the article might need to merit GA (or any areas the article is generally weak). Would you be willing to help with that? Or, stated a different way: I want to bringWilla Brownto GAI'd likeyour helpwhaddaya say?Burma-shavecreffett (talk) 23:57, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

When Creffett wantsto make a GAjust smile real big 😊and say "OK" 👌🏻Burma-shave ^Atsme _Talk 📧 00:30, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi Atsme, thank you so much for the concern, it will be an honour for me to be mentored by you. Innocent Paki (talk)

I am quite happy that you took the initiative, Innocent Paki. The honour is mine. I pinged you to let you know I responded, but if you are going to check-in here on a regular basis, I won't use the ping feature anymore unless you request it (standard procedure when editors are watching pages). Ok, so let's begin with you reading WP:DAB, and how to avoid doing that in the future. Also read MOS:OVERLINK so you are not adding unnecessary wikilinks to words that are common knowledge, as you did here - many of us made the same mistakes as newbies so don't be concerned. I just used the "Highlight duplicate links" tool on Sargodha and there are quite a few duplicates. Rule of thumb: if there are wikilinks in the lead, it is ok to wikilink the word one more time in the proper section of the body text but only if the word is not a common one. Typically, one wikilink is sufficient. Anything beyond that should be removed. After you read the two linked guidelines, I encourage you to ask questions, especially if you are uncertain about any aspect of the guideline. You can either WP:Ping me to your page, or come here to my UTP and ask. A word of caution - please exercise caution making bold edits, especially if the article has either a GA or FA symbol in the top right corner of the page, and you intend to make major changes. It is always best to propose changes on the article talk page first. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 13:10, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Sir, I have gone through the both WP:DAB and MOS:OVERLINK and have learnt alot. Thanks again for such a great guidance. In addition to this, I also have corrected the overlinks and links to the disambiguation pages. Innocent Paki (talk)

Ok, good, but I think you misunderstood what I meant about overlinks in articles. Take a look at my last series of edits at Sargodha. When a place or item has been wikilinked once, we don't keep doing it. We also don't wikilink common names and items, like orange, restaurant, fabric, dairy and so on. Are you familiar with the settings in your user preferences, or how to use common.js scripts? ^Atsme _Talk 📧 03:11, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply! I have seen your recent edits on article Sargodha and now I've understood about overlinks. Thanks for being such a nice and cooperative teacher :). No, I am not familiar about these two. Can you please guide? Innocent Paki (talk)

Thanks for being a good student, Innocent Paki. Now, on to a fun learning experience. Click on Wikipedia:TWA and enjoy the voyage. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 20:07, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Ok mam, I also want to discuss something else. One user has started a war of edits and keep on adding the blurry pic of port in infobox of article Karachi. He also has multiple accounts. What should I do now? Innocent Paki (talk) 21:40, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Innocent Paki, do not edit war or you will both be blocked. Start a discussion on the TP of the article and try to reach WP:Consensus. Study WP:Five Pillars because knowing & understanding them will determine your future here as an editor. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 10:28, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi Astme, with due respect, I request you to reverts the edits in Healthcare section of Sargodha, Each notable and major hospital was listed and was mentioned in a given source, should not be removed at all, DHQ Hospital is the largest public hospital, but you removed it also because it doesn't have it's own wikipedia article. If its mandatory for place/thing to must have a wikipedia article to be include in a list then I think half of wikipedia lists would be removed on different articles. Waiting anxiously for your reply. Yours obediently, Innocent Paki (talk)

Being listed in a given source does not make it notable. If they are wikilinked, they probably passed WP:GNG and/or WP:N - I suggest you read those guidelines to better understand what does and does not qualify for inclusion. Also, please read WP:NOTDIRECTORY, WP:NOTIMAGE, WP:NOTPROMO, and WP:NOTTRAVEL. Our articles are not the Yellow Pages or travel guides. Now please let me continue working on that article without further edit conflicts. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 19:04, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi there, Atsme

Just to let you know that the Featured Picture File:Yellow papillae flatworm (Thysanozoon nigropapillosum) (cropped).jpg is due to make an appearance as Picture of the Day on April 9, 2020. If you get a chance, you can check and improve the caption at Template:POTD/2020-04-09. The article is a bit stubby, but I am planning on expanding it a bit. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:57, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:57, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

How cool!! Thanks Cwmhiraeth! I captured that shot in Yap. It never entered my mind that flatworms could swim. That particular flatworm took off with the current from a section of rocks it was crawling on, so I took advantage of the opportunity and swam alongside it to get the shot. The image was chosen as one of 56 finalists for 2015 POTY along with my squid image which actually made it as high as #20 in the finals. Miracles do happen. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 09:39, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

That is not something I expect I will ever seen in person; however, so cool to make the Featured Picture! dawnleelynn^(talk) 22:52, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

It is not that unusual to see a flatworm swim, but also not so easy to get a good photo. Some luck needed, also some skill and a good camera. Cheers · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 18:11, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

And Peter...it also helps if you know how to (1) swim, and can (2) snorkel or scuba dive. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 19:29, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Well, that's a cool looking flatworm which obviously posed no danger. But some flatworms I wouldn't want to run into because they are parasitic to humans. lol. dawnleelynn^(talk) 19:47, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

• Yippee! Way to go Atsme!--MONGO (talk) 03:24, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

...-ki-yay!! 🤠 ^Atsme _Talk 📧 13:40, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

• Pretty awesome, congratulations! PackMecEng (talk) 19:12, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Dear Atsme Yr pic of the above entrances me with the strangeness and wonder of nature: for me to fall in love again (with the wormy bit of nature, of course!) might you have video of it too? Peter109.150.97.11 (talk) 07:50, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi, Peter - thank you for sharing such lovely thoughts. Unfortunately, I did not have access to my video camera at the time. The flatworm encounter came and went rather quickly. My assistant was carrying my video camera but was off scouting a location for me to safely shoot the giant mantarays. I do have video of them, and some sharks. In fact, I will gladly donate some video footage to WP:Commons now that you have stirred latent memories. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 12:27, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Taking a picture underwater in the ocean would be cool but I float. Would need 300 pounds of weights to keep me submerged at all.--MONGO (talk) 15:12, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

I could ask my cousin Luciano if 300 lbs. would be enough to keep you down, and if so, if it's available in something other than footware. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 15:32, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Ship anchor? 18th century iron cannon? Think 800 pound hairy woodland beast then factor in the salt water being more buoyant than fresh water.--MONGO (talk) 18:44, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Onion. petrarchan47คุก 21:55, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Hope I'm not rolling my eyes too loudly. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 23:33, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Its where I live. -Roxy, the PROD. . wooF 01:05, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Wyoming is Boring - hilarious!! ^Atsme _Talk 📧 21:37, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Being from Wyoming, I had to click. How can she be that funny for 40 minutes? Anyway, you're right, she is hilarious. dawnleelynn^(talk) 22:50, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

	The Editor's Barnstar
	For all of your help in getting Willa Brown to GA status - I couldn't have done it without your assistance. creffett (talk) 12:35, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

• Awww...you are such a sweetie! Thank you for the kind words but you did quite a bit of it without me. Either way, it was a pleasure to collaborate with you Creffett - it makes me happy to see you walk away smiling over a job well done. 💃💃💃 ^Atsme _Talk 📧 13:31, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

... if you were going to complain about my edit at AN, shouldn't you have notified me? I just happened to see it. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:10, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

You are an admin, MelanieN - you know what you just did and what policies apply, if any - but I do not. I would think that you, as an admim, are obligated to watch AN - is that not the case? Are lowly editors still obligated to notify admins when we post something on a noticeboard that admins should be watching, especially after making an unorthodox edit that no one other than an admin is allowed to make when a page has such a level of PP? If so, my apologies to you for whatever transgression I made while trying to sort this travesty out in my mind. You responded within 10 min of my post at AN, which made notification to you a moot point - granted, I am a bit slow. With the latter in mind, I was t-banned within 9 min of a post I had made with no notice about it to me; therefore, I can understand your concern, so my apology to you is sincere. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 23:24, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I happened to be at AN because I was curious to see what the thread immediately above, titled "Joe Biden", was about. Idly noticed the thread below, was pretty surprised to see it was about me. Yes, I would say we are obligated to notify someone when we post about them at AN or ANI. Not all admins spend all their time on AN, and the red notice at the top of the editing page does not make an exception for admins. But as it happens I DID see it, which was lucky. And some people have objected to my edit, so apparently it was not as obviously uncontroversial as I thought. No offense taken. See you at the talk page. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:34, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Again, MelanieN - my apologies - my question at AN was for clarity, not for any action to be taken against you. You are already aware of the attempts by numerous editors to include what RS have published, and you stood in opposition to inclusion, then turned around and added what you felt was appropriate. I see it as inadvertent POV creep but I'm one person - you chose to do what you did because you could whereas the rest of us could not - we have to wait for consensus to decide what we can or cannot add while admins have the ability to reject our inclusion of material. Worse yet, we have been denied a close for that RfC despite overwhelming support to close it and to include the material that was proposed whereas you simply added material with ease. Perhaps that is what instigated my question about your addition. I'm at the point where I really don't care anymore - I have better things to do with my time, so good luck, and again - my sincere apologies for the delay in notifying you. It was a mistake on my part - I overlooked it because of my focus on other things - and it won't happen again - but a reminder to me to do so would be welcome. Unlike what some would like to believe, I am NOT an infallible editor. ^{[FBDB] Atsme} _Talk 📧 23:48, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Protection policy does not seem to indicate that admins are disallowed from making uncontroversial changes, though thinking back to the Wikipedia stone ages when I was an admin, I seem to recollect that only a previously uninvolved admin should edit such a page, and only if there was a request from the editors at the page to make such an edit based on concensus. In a perfect world probably better to have a talkpage discussion first, even though these were very much uncontroversial changes.--MONGO (talk) 19:12, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

[5], [6]

Obvious misunderstanding - WP:FULL states: Placing the Edit fully protected template on the talk page will draw the attention of administrators for implementing uncontroversial changes. "Draw the attention for implementing" means: as it applies to Changes to a fully protected page should be proposed on the corresponding talk page, and carried out by an administrator if they are uncontroversial or if there is consensus for them. It is not a greenlight for any admin to simply add or revert/remove whatever material they (in their sole discretion) deem "uncontroversial", especially if it is one they have personally chosen to include. I consider the precise wording to be extremely important, otherwise we'd be turning over controversial articles to the sole discretion of admins, and I doubt that was the intent of full PP. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 19:31, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Also says: "Protected pages may not be edited except to make changes that are uncontroversial or for which there is clear consensus"....and..."Administrators who have made substantive content changes to an article are considered involved and must not use their advanced permissions to further their own positions. When involved in a dispute, it is almost always wisest to respect the editing policies that bind all editors and call for input from an uninvolved administrator, rather than to invite controversy by acting unilaterally...". So though policy is policy there is always some room for discretion. Any admin in good standing with as few (if any) prior eye brow raising actions in the past should be given a pass for making such actions as the diffs shown. However, as discussed, it is best to err on the side of extreme caution, especially considering this subject matter, better discuss ANY changes first. The policy is not absolutely clear on the matter. I remember distinctly now back in 2005 when we were looking all this over prior to getting semi-protection implimented, that there was no policy written as absolute gospel about this matter.--MONGO (talk) 20:40, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Well, I don't think there is any dispute about my high regard for MelanieN as I have expressed it openly on more than one occasion despite our occasional differences, so my purpose at AN was not to create dramah (or I never would have affectionately created the ^{( Buttinsky)} template for her). Having said that, I have no doubt WP policies would be subject to change clarification if/when circumstances change (and they will) to support a different systemic perspective. Like everything else, it's only a matter of time. In the interim, my focus on WP is to continue helping with the creation/promotion of GA/FA type articles, as it appears to be your objective as well, and to hell with politics! ^Atsme _Talk 📧 21:02, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I noticed that you wrote "so stop pinging me" to another editor.

If you go to your preferences tab and select Notifications, you can scroll down to muted users and set it so they can't ping you.[7]

You can also select User Options and scroll down to where you can set it so they can't email you either. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:41, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Guy - that's a helpful bit of information. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 15:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Q: Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections?

A: Two reasons. First, medical personal are trained to follow certain procedures every time. If they had to think about whether this time was an exception, they would make more errors. Second, it has happened that they got the needle in and suddenly there was a reprieve or a delay. In those cases it would be embarrassing to have the prisoner die of an infection.

Q: Why is there braille on drive-thru ATMs?

A: (Full disclosure: I have designed the electronics ATMs and yes, they did have braille). Two reasons: first, when you manufacture an ATM you don't know where it will be installed, and it would cost more to make two kinds. Second, blind people often take Taxis or have a friend drive them to the ATM, where they operate it from the rear seat.

Now I have some easy questions for you from my page at [ http://www.guymacon.com/easyquestions.html ].

No fair looking at my answer page before answering! :)

I promise not to look. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 18:28, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Easy Questions: The Ultimate Easy Quiz

[01] How long did the Hundred Years War last?

Depends on (a) who reported it and whether or not it was a RS, (b) what calendar was used, and (c) what time zone it was in.

[02] What was New Mexico named after?

I think it was named right after they named Texas.

[03] Which country makes most Panama Hats?

China, but they call them coolie hats cuz their cool, and they swear their hats are not copies of the ones made in Ecuador.

[04] In the story "1001 Arabian nights" what nationality was Aladdin?

Disney made him an international star so his nationality would be global or maybe Disneyian.

[05] What nationality were the original Pennsylvania Dutch?

Based on their saucy attitude, I'd say Hollandaise.

[06] From which animal do we get Catgut?

Hmmm...I'm pretty sure I was vaccinated for that as a child. Has it resurfaced? Are bats carriers of that, too?

[07] Which U.S. State is the farthest north? South? East? West?

California...their politics aren't simply left or right - they're all over the place.

[08] In which month do Russians celebrate the October Revolution?

Beginning before or after the 2016 US prez election? If after, I'd have to say every month is a celebration for the Russians.

[09] What material was used to clad the sides of the US warship "Old Ironsides"?.

I know for sure it wasn't polyester. The word clad brings tartan-clad to mind so I'll say wool like what comprises a Brillo pad...and lots of it!!

[10] What is a Camel hair brush made of?

Based on how it feels when I brush my hair, it's the same stuff they used to clad the sides of "Old Ironsides".

[11] The Canary Islands are named after what animal?

Well...I'll be dogged...this one escapes me...as does the island of Alcatraz.

[12] What was King George VI's first name?

Your majesty.

[13] What color is a Purple Finch?

If this is a gender issue...it's easy to guess which one is the loudest and most colorful...at least from a female's perspective.

[14] Where do the Cuban Lily and Confederate Rose come from?

A chicken ranch in Nevada.

[15] Upon what hill was the Battle of Bunker Hill fought?

Well, no hill is one we choose to die on especially on WP, but I'll say the hill Harvard sits on, no wait...make that Boston University. Harvard just thinks they're the only university in Boston.

More answers to come later, maybe around Happy Hour when things liven-up a bit.

[16] Who is buried in Grant's tomb?

Jimmy Hoffa

[17] What bird has the scientific name Puffinus puffinus puffinus?

It’s neither bird nor dragon - it’s a type of cigarette, as in Puff-on-this magic, and keep dragon

[18] What is another word for Thesaurus? Hint: One word, four syllables, eight letters, one letter is used three times, another letter is used twice, and I found it in Roget's Thesaurus.

You are just one giant storehouse of knowledge, Mr. Macon - let’s see…I’ll go with Thesaurus Rex. ^{Remember, it was Happy Hour when I wrote this and saw pink rhinos - surely you don't expect me to count. 15:46, 22 April 2020 (UTC)}

[19] What color are White Rhinos?

Depends on what I’m drinking…I’ll go with pink.

[20] How long did the Thirty Years War last?

Right up until the wrinkles became obvious, then I had to tell the truth so I’ll say 30 years.

[21] A man travels due south for one kilometer. He turns left 90 degrees and travels due east for one kilometer, at which point he shoots a bear. He then turns left 90 degrees and travels due north for one kilometer, returning to the exact spot he left from. [21a] What color is the bear?

Blood red - for Pete's sake, the guy shot him.

[21b] What direction is the wind blowing from at the starting/ending point?

If it’s a political wind, it’s blowing straight up from Hell, unless it’s a California or New York wind then it’s all over the place, but if it’s a Texas wind - seek cover dumbass, it’s a tornado!!

Well...did I pass the test?? ^Atsme _Talk 📧 20:26, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Answers are at [ http://www.guymacon.com/easyanswers.html ]. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:35, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

• - patience, Mr. Macon...this is going to take me a while because it requires engagement of the brain which doesn't always come easy for me. 🤯 ^Atsme _Talk 📧 17:26, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Oops, I forgot to ping our trivia genius after I completed the test, so here it is. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 18:41, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Wow. Better answers than the ones I came up with! --Guy Macon (talk) 18:55, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

You're too kind, and I love that you have such a great sense of humor. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 19:33, 19 April 2020 (UTC)