User talk:MFTP Dan

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Old name 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021 2022 2023 2024 (old name) When active, I archive this after every year ends.

I tend to ramble a lot to the point I get incoherent in content debates sometimes. If I say anything totally confusing or even mean-sounding, I probably didn't mean it that way, so just let me know and we'll work it out.

I do not do GA reviews by request unless a trade offer is made or a second opinion is requested, but I might do a Peer review or a specific area of an FAC. If I am urgently needed, my Discord handle is @american_horse. I am on Wikipedia's official server where I am nicknamed the same as my username here, but I usually am not active there.

	The Barnstar of Diplomacy
	Sterling collegiality at FAC. Hope you return fully refreshed! ——Serial Number 54129 11:59, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's no FA, but this does make me smile a little. Thank you for the love. I'm still here, but I need to give the "grinding" a rest. mftp dan ^oops 02:05, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your reversal of edits on the wiki page for Mattias Norlinder is both disruptive and constitutes WP:Own. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 04:09, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As an IP, you have unusual awareness of this policy (which you've misunderstood). I am not owning the page, I am monitoring your edits because I find your edit pattern and the fact that you disregard the comments of others concerning. If you take such an issue with the way leagues are represented, take it up with WP:HOCKEY. Allsvenskan teams are not included in the infobox unless the player is currently there. Would you include the Laval Rocket as well? They're a professional league, after all. Of course you wouldn't. mftp dan ^oops 14:12, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you need to brush up on the WP:OWN policy, rockstar.

"No one, no matter what, has the right to...dictate what the article may or may not say." Furthermore, your reversal of my edits are considered a form of edit warring, which, when conducted "with dogged insistence" and "without good policy backup", in itself "may be an expression of ownership behavior".

For the record, there is absolutely no difference in listing a HockeyAllsvenskan team in an infobox than a DEL2 team for example (compared to its DEL counterpart). See pages such as Lucas Lessio, Christian Thomas (ice hockey), Martin Réway, and Sebastian Collberg for further reference. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 15:05, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

None of the examples you've provided me are supposed to have these listed, Charlottetown. Inevitably, European players who never end up playing for the North American leagues will slip in unnoticed. We aren't perfect, but that doesn't make it a precedent to follow. I've been doing this for years. mftp dan ^oops 15:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Except every single one of those players mentioned has amassed North American and/or National Hockey League experience...your point is invalid.

By the way, your statement "I've been doing this for years" also goes against the WP:OWN policy (specifically, para 1 under Statements re pulling rank. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 15:17, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're accusing me of not knowing what I'm doing, when you really should just take the good faith of someone who has been doing this a lot longer than you have instead of arguing with someone who's been established and seen how policy is applied, even if I can't dig up exactly where this was agreed upon in some deep archive. What else do I do? But that's besides the point. Humor me for a second, Charlottetown: say, instead of being a Canadiens fan, you were a Bruins fan (a far worse fate). Would you apply the same principle for David Pastrnak's tenure with Södertalje? I'd like to see how that would go. mftp dan ^oops 15:26, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The player in question (Norlinder) had pro experience prior to being drafted/North American debut. Since Modo Hockey embodies both the HockeyAllsvenskan team as well as its Swedish Hockey League (SHL) counterpart, this is an accurate inclusion. This can be seen in infobox for Nicklas Lidström whom played for Västerås IK in all of: Hockeyettan, HockeyAllsvenskan, and the SHL between 1987-89, with underlying wikipage being formatted only to its SHL parallel. Regardless, it does not take away from the experience gained in the other two professional leagues whom share the same namesake. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 18:39, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is once again not how it works. In Lidström's case, since you brought it up, Västerås was promoted to the top flight in 1989, while Lidström was still playing in Sweden. Modo was never in the top flight when Norlinder played for them, so it is excluded, since he has played in a top-flight league in his career, though briefly. Whether it came before Norlinder was in Montreal, or whether the two leagues are related or not, is entirely irrelevant. mftp dan ^oops 19:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can see the exact same thing in infobox for David Reinbacher re EHC Kloten. He played in both the Swiss League and National League iterations of the team. Its inclusion in the infobox can be interpreted as either or. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 19:15, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, it can't. That's what I'm trying to tell you. It's there because he played for Kloten while they were in the top flight. I don't know why you're trying so hard to argue this, any established hockey editor would tell you the exact same thing. mftp dan ^oops 19:21, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And yet, an "established hockey editor" you clearly are not. Stick to your Green Day albums. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 19:36, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@47.54.219.33 Dan is absolutely an established hockey editor and they are telling you the same things I've been telling you that you've been ignoring. Please defer to precedent and stop putting second tier teams in infoboxes. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 19:45, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, because I'm supposed to let the IP who's been editing since June 28 be wrong just because they don't like the community's opinion on how players have their teams listed in the infobox. I may die on small hills, but they are what's right. mftp dan ^oops 19:46, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Wheatzilopochtli that's rich coming from the WP:OWN gatekeeper who has created a page for a 15-year-old WHL prospect who has played a total of ZERO professional games to date across any sort of league here or abroad.

@MFTP Dan I've been active on Wikipedia a lot longer than my current IP address may lead one to believe (January 2013). 47.54.219.33 (talk) 19:58, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And yet you never learned the standard? Rich. I'll be bringing this to the WikiProject. mftp dan ^oops 20:00, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@47.54.219.33 DuPont passes GNG, and even if he doesn't I fail to see how that's relevant. Please stop hurling insults and accusations, and start acting collaboratively. Dan is right to escalate this if they choose to do so. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 20:09, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@47.54.219.33, I'm going to make this as simple as possible:

• The consensus of WP:NHL has been that if a player has played in a top-level hockey league, solely their top-level teams are included in the infobox. Second-tier or lower teams are only included if the second-tier is the highest level one played at.
• Norlinder has played top-level hockey games with the Habs (NHL) and Frolunda (SHL).
• Norlinder only played for Modo when they were in the HockeyAllsvenskan, the second-tier of Swedish hockey. He did not play for them in the SHL.
• Therefore, Modo is not included in Norlinder's infobox, despite currently being an SHL team. The Lidstrom/Reinbacher examples you provide are moot, as Lidstrom and Reinbacher played for Vasteras and Kloten while they were in top-level leagues, despite also playing for them in lower leagues.

The Kip ^(contribs) 20:46, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The IP continues to edit war, so I recommend you report the IP to WP:EW. -- GoodDay (talk) 23:29, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I'm Engineerchange. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, Joe Alt, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. --Engineerchange (talk) 16:57, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ Engineerchange: Instead of reverting me, how about use common sense and replace the source if that's the problem? I didn't read it to be fair, but if you look at Mark's article it has his entire career statistics. mftp dan ^oops 17:20, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@MFTP Dan: Hockey is not my specialty on here. Only adding content when it is properly sourced should be the common sense solution here, not relying on others. Respectfully, --Engineerchange (talk) 17:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Engineerchange: I'll admit I had fault for not actually reading the chosen reference, but is it really that hard to simply search Google for Mark Alt and pull one of a multitude of his career statistic pages? No, you had to template a well-established editor and revert me instead. mftp dan ^oops 17:48, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@MFTP Dan: My apologies if I hurt your feelings, but the template states the fundamentals concisely. The article, as it stood, was accurate, albeit outdated. Passing on the legwork of finding a citation to cite your additions is not a good or fair practice to the rest of us. As an established editor, you should know that. --Engineerchange (talk) 18:08, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You couldn't have even attempted it for a minute or two? I'm more annoyed that someone such as yourself could've just clicked Mark Alt, seen I was right, taken Google's first result and fixed it because I made a mistake and I was on mobile anyway. But you couldn't be bothered, you'd rather just revert. mftp dan ^oops 18:17, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds like "couldn't be bothered" is a description of your own poor effort. Being on your phone is not a sufficient defense. Binksternet (talk) 20:25, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Guilty as charged there. You try typing raw citation markup into Wikipedia on mobile when it doesn't support the citation toolbar. The day that it does, I will. I thought this place was about teamwork. But I'm wasting my breath at this point. mftp dan ^oops 20:34, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was not trying to vandalize the page, I was attempting to undo the previous revision with an uncomfirmed rumor. Sorry for the misunderstanding. GreenPepper1 (talk) 03:48, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Forgiven. The page still ought to be protected. mftp dan ^oops 03:48, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, its dangerous to spread false rumors. GreenPepper1 (talk) 03:54, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like someone's intervened for us. We should still be vigilant of any inappropriate edits coming from autoconfirmed users. mftp dan ^oops 03:55, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I thought the problem was that I was removing too much at once lol? CatTits10 (talk) 23:45, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If this is about ADTR, I self-reverted. It was temporary. I was using it as a tool to see what I could improve, what we should keep, what we should remove. mftp dan ^oops 23:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay loud and clear CatTits10 (talk) 23:53, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The edits were made by a banned (not just blocked) editor. They were reverted per this policy.-- Ponyo^{bons mots} 23:46, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh that's all? So if I see one of these, and the edit is in fact good, I'm just clear to restore it after reviewing it? mftp dan ^oops 01:05, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If a sockmaster is blocked for adding unsourced or poorly sourced content, copyright violations, BLP violations, or other content-related issues, then you need to ensure that none of those issues persist in the content you're thinking of restoring. If you restore edits made by socks that are problematic in any way, you take on the full responsibility for the accuracy and legitimacy of that content. As noted in the policy, "even if the editor were to make good or good-faith edits, permitting them to edit in those areas is perceived to pose enough risk of disruption, issues, or harm, to the page or to the project, that they may not edit at all, even if the edits seem good" (emphasis original). The last thing we want is to encourage editors to continue evading their block. -- Ponyo^{bons mots} 17:11, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, of course I'd make sure it didn't have any glaring obvious issues before restoring something. I see none of the things you listed in that edit, for the record (presumably why the edit stands so thank you).

That aside if you wanted to listen to my marginally related tangent, I've read the policy and I'm not really a fan of it. Encouragement or lack thereof, I think persistence on evasion has little to do with what we do about it. I have no experience in actual evasion obviously, but it would seem to me that unless there's page protection involved in individual cases, the avenues of escape are limitless and determined evaders will just keep doing so until they're bored. Not really sure that boredom comes from admin action related to anything other than a page - in fact I almost am more inclined to believe that blocks/reverts encourage most cases' behavior. What does it really matter if they say "oh I did good things behind the scenes"? That doesn't improve their reputation.

Anyway, I understand the point you're making and thank you for discussing the matter with me. At least I have some more context to it now. mftp dan ^oops 18:21, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]