Template talk:Coord/Archive 3

This is an archive of past discussions about Template:Coord. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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When coord is used in an infobox whose text size is set to, say, 90%, with the "inline,title" or "title" display chosen, the coordinates in the title bar are also shown at the reduced text size. Can the CSS be edited so that 100% is always used for that location? Andy Mabbett 17:13, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Google say that Google Earth should be parsing coord "within a week" (of 6 June; my emphasis); and that "it may take [about a month] before users would see any articles pop up in the Wikipedia layer that have been tagged with this template. Of course, this is also dependent on the database dump cycles. If there is not a new dump available when we kick off the next round of parsing, it might be two months". Andy Mabbett 11:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Excellent news. I did have a look for when coor title shows up in Google Earth and the latest I could find was about mid-Jan; so it takes a while (this was looking at the Anomebot's log of edits). Ben Bulben is the earliest I could find using coord (early April). -- roundhouse 17:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Important: We now have a green light from Google Earth, to begin converting existing templates to coord. The warning on the template documentation is looking increasingly stupid. Andy Mabbett 11:55, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Google have posted that they are now parsing coord. --Para 08:24, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

And yet you still haven't removed your ever-more inappropriate warning from the template's documentation. Andy Mabbett 18:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Google Earth have just restructured their Geographic Web layer, and at the same time updated their Wikipedia data from the May 27 database dump. Coordinates for Wootton Creek for example were added on May 20, and the article is now visible at its location in Google Earth. The template issue is still there however and the parser change doesn't seem to have made it for the update; none of the coord test articles mentioned here are visible. There are currently 40,000+ articles using coord. Patience would indeed have been a virtue. --Para 09:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with Para and I state that Google Earth obviously still only contains articles with coor (please correct me if I'm wrong) and that the FAQ still has not been adapted to Coord. That's a pitty. Could you, Andy, please contact Jason (c.f. "green light from Google Earth" above) or someone else from the Google Earth Team and report here on the status? Thank you. -- Geonick 22:14, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I have just received e-mail from Stefan Kühn, saying that he will begin parsing coord this week. Andy Mabbett 12:37, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

If it is possible! ;-) -- sk 14:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Why would it not be? Andy Mabbett 14:16, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Stefan is busy. Seeing as a new dump is probably months away and Wikipedians can be more flexible than external people, do we need to wait? --Para 08:39, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

No, we don't need to wait, just as we haven't needed to since the beginning of June. Andy Mabbett 14:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Andy alias Pigsonthewing: You obviously misinterpreted Stefan Kühn's mail. He writes on his user page today(!) that he added finally Template:Coord to his scripts, so we can hope that next few weeks template Coord will be finally 'outreached'. The bad news is that many well known services like geonames.org and Google Earth still have not updated yet their parsers from coor to Coord! I hope that there will be a homogenization phase now and, please, wait for larger consensus a little more next time... Thank you. -- Geonick 21:44, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I misinterpreted nothing. Google Earth are also parsing coord, as the link you provide indicates. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 22:05, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but the link I provided does not mention coord but only coor, coordinates and coords: please clarify. In addition, tell me an article in the Google Earth layer which only contains coor and undoubtedly stems from en.Wikipedia. So, if you're right, all the better :-> -- Geonick 22:27, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

What exactly does this mean "Note: using the title attribute indicates that the coordinates apply to the article, and not just one of (perhaps many) places mentioned in it — so it should only be omitted in the latter case. It will be used to add the article to services such as Google Earth layers." It seems to me that the sentence is saying that Google Earth, et al will not process the coordinates for their use, unless the Wikipedia article includes the "display=title". Is that correct? CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 20:05, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

That's how it was handled with coor title and coor at, and should be done the same way with coord. There used to also be the special case of having the coordinates in an infobox, where they always apply to the whole article. This is all because we don't have markup to say whether something is a part of the article or just related to it. We'll see in a few months how information using this template gets visualised. --Para 08:29, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The reason for asking is because the consensus in airport articles was to only have the coordinates in the box and not at the top of the page. A very few of the airports use this template but most use the "coor dms" and that is picked up by Google Earth. It didn't need coor title or coor at to work. Take a look at Cambridge Bay Water Aerodrome which has only used the "coor dms". If this template doesn't get picked up then the airport articles will need to stay with the older template or will all need to be changed to use the "display=title" parameter. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 17:04, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

My understanding is that (in Cambridge Bay Water Aerodrome) you would use coord in the infobox with display=inline and this will be fine with Google Earth, and not show in the title. There is some uncertainty about whether Google Earth etc are actually parsing coord so I would be inclined to do nothing ufn. The most recent words on this are perhaps here where a bot is mentioned; the Anome generally makes a lot of sense. -- roundhouse0 17:24, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 18:38, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The only such uncertainty is in your own mind. Andy Mabbett 18:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I see that Google Earth have posted support for coord in the meantime and so CambridgeBayWeather could proceed to use coord with confidence. -- roundhouse0 19:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

There's no need to be like that Andy. Just because something is clear to one person does not mean that it's clear to all. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 20:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

It was made clear to roundhouse0 some time ago; but two editors have - for reasons I've been unable to determine - been spreading FUD about coord for some time. See discussion regarding Google Earth, above. Andy Mabbett 20:35, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

FUD yields quite a variety of interpretations ... It was not clear to me that Google Earth had announced support because I didn't notice Para's note above (of 08:24, 24 June 2007 (UTC)) about this until today. Is that clear? -- roundhouse0 21:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I told you on 7 June that Google Earth had said they would be parsing coord; you must have seen that, since you replied. I posted just one day later, to say that they had explicitly said that they were content for us to begin converting existing coordinates templates to coord. Andy Mabbett 22:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I have a sense of deja vu on this - I'm sorry you didn't follow the counter-argument, eloquently put by Para, and others, above and elsewhere. Patience was advocated. -- roundhouse0 11:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I understand fully that patience was advocated; I also understand that it was uncesary, and that we've wasted time which could have been spent productively converting coordinate templates. Andy Mabbett 15:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

now will somebody please remove the blatantly false warning from this template's documentation? Andy Mabbett 10:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Could someone who hasn't been fighting their cause related to this template and ended up blocked for it, comment on the Wikipedia-World section above? --Para 11:06, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the warning because I understand it is no longer justified as projects have announced that they either support {{coord}} or will be doing imminently. Adambro 11:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

As was the case at the beginning of June, when I first removed it. Thank you, though. Andy Mabbett 14:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Certainly - I'll do so now. Andy Mabbett 14:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

When displaying Springfield, Illinois the decimal coordinates in the Geobox get broken into two lines; that wouldn't be a problem, but the last character on the line is the minus sign and the figure to which it belongs is displayed on the next one. Other users report the line being broken before the final W. Whether this occurs depends on every browser's settings so it doesn't always show this way. I'd suggest putting both longitude and latitude figures in a span with the style="white-space: nowrap" property. – Caroig (talk) 09:06, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd support a change to stop wrapping, but, on reflection, the values are already wrapped in spans of classes "latitude" and "longitude", so the change could be made in the style sheet. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 09:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

That would definitely be the best solution. In the meantime the style="white-space: nowrap" property might be added to both "latitude" and "longitude" span, it won't do any harm. – Caroig (talk)

Pages marked with {{coord}} can be exported as KML (for use in Google Earth, for example) via Brian Suda's site, in this format:

http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/geo/get-geo.php?type=kml&uri=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_volcanoes_in_the_United_States_of_America

The same URL can be pasted into Google Maps as a search, and will show the locations, as push-pins on a map

I've requested a template which will generate such links, for any page on which it appears. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 10:35, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

The template {{kml}} was created - and promptly nominated for deletion. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 22:15, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Pigsonthewing: Are you joking? You seem to have created a template (kml) and you obviously add this to articles together with Category:Lists of coordinates!? This is completely redundant, confuses users and finally deteriorates the article text! Adding the coord template is completely enough to fulfill these requirements. Exporting to KML realtime the way you do it is only feasible with few articles (say less than 500). Instead this is done by services like Stefan Kühn's, geonames.org's and Google's by parsing coord template out of the article text from the offline backup. I appreciate your work, but, please, use Wikipedia with care and modesty. There are so many cool things to do around coordinates --Geonick 00:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

"Pigsonthewing: Are you joking?" - No. And my name is Andy Mabbett.

"This is completely redundant" - It is not.

"confuses users" - How do you think it does that?

"Adding the coord template is completely enough to fulfill (sic) these requirements." - it is not; it serves an entirely different purpose.

Geo Names and Google do not do what {{kml}} does; you appear to be speaking form a position of misapprehension. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett

You are right, the {{kml}} is not only redundant, it's unnecessary and misplaced - and that's what will confuse other users. -- Geonick 13:13, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The first three words of your comment are correct; the rest are wrong, childish, unsubstantiated and fail to answer the points I raisied. Please do the latter. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 13:22, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The task of adding a KML-download or -display link could be easily accomplished with a small piece of JavaScript code. The link could be dynamically added to the page if a certain minimal number of coords are found on teh page. What do you think? --Dschwen 13:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

And for people without use of Javascript..? That would be a breach of WCAG. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 13:35, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Not using JS is mostly a concious choice these days, and as a KML-download link is not a vital part of the Wikipedia-browsing-experience it doesn't strike me as a strong argument. And since you seem familiar with WCAG could you please point me to the paragraph in the Guidelines which abolish the use of Javascript? --Dschwen 13:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

"Not using JS is mostly a concious choice these days" - can you cite some evidence of that, please? And tell me how to enable it on my WindowsPocketPC2001 PDA? As for "vital" parts of the WP experience, isn't that rather a subjective matter, and down to the individual user? Since I have me no claim about the abolition of Javascript, no I can't do as you ask, but you may wish to familiarise yourself with checkpoint 6.3 of WCAG 1. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 13:54, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

WCAG1 is superseeded by WCAG2. And you have not cited any evidence on how a JS solution would be in violation of it. Whatever. The you in what do you think was plural. You Andy are just one person here. And apart from being very vocal I don't how you are being productive here. I am fairly tired of getting barked at and seing other people getting barked at by you. You are not helpingf to create a friendly collaborative atmosphere here with your aggressive confrontational attitude. --14:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dschwen (talk • contribs)

WCAG2 is still a draft it has not superseded anything (noenthlesess, WCAG2 says "In choosing Web technologies (HTML, scripting, etc.) that will be used when creating content that will meet the WCAG 2.0 success criteria, authors must use technologies that are supported by users' assistive technologies as well as the accessibility features in browsers and other user agents. Such technologies are referred to as "accessibility supported."). It is for you to prove that your solution will work; please do not ask me to prove a negative. I'm afraid I can't do anything about the apparently paranoid feelings you describe. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 14:14, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Fine, it's a working draft again. However after familiarizing myself with section 6.3 in WCAG1 I can only conclude that a JS solution would transform gracefully. The information presented on the page would be the same, only a service link would be missing. So what. Should we delete the WikiMiniAtlas now, as it does need Javascript? Should we ban GoogleMaps which you apparently embrace to view the KML data? WCAG1 is outdated crap. WCAG2 is new crap, which they thankfully demoted to working draft status after tons of negative feedback. Let's hope they come up with some sensible guidelines soon. --Dschwen 14:44, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The task can also be accomplished with plain Perl or PHP as Para has demonstrated (see [1]). This gives strong evidence that {{kml}} is obsolete. So please keep using {{Coord}} and avoid using template {{kml}} at least until it's decided if it can be deleted. -- Geonick 00:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

{{coord}} is needed by {{kml}} so the suggestion does not make sense. kml is needed to indicate that an article has a collection of coordinates as well as to provide a way to access that collection. Para's changing of the script which displays the collection does not change the need for such a tool (no matter how many versions of it exist). (SEWilco 15:38, 8 August 2007 (UTC))

I said this in the deletion discussion already, but here goes again: Such indicators are not needed. Wikipedia is filled with articles that in addition to the main topic of the article handle subtopics that are either a part of the topic or related to it. There has never been any need to give self-referential hints to readers that the article provides more complete information than its name might imply; the readers can see that themselves after having looked at the article for a moment. We shouldn't include direct links to all multi-uses of small details in articles, especially when there are multiple alternatives. The links to geographical information services are available when clicking on any of the set's coordinates. If you feel that GeoTemplate doesn't sufficiently explain its capability of relaying data for services that handle sets of coordinates, sofixit. --Para 15:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

We've said it in the kml discussion, but Geonick put his comment here. However, I can't seem to find in {{GeoTemplate}} where it says "Find these locations"; it only says "Find this location". GeoTemplate is for single points, not collections. Or else its collection ability needs documentation by someone who knows about it. (SEWilco 16:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC))

Let's work on the wording then if that's the problem. The functionality itself doesn't need much documentation, see the modified[2] GeoTemplate sandbox for an example. --Para 16:20, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not the wording which is the problem, but the fact that you're proposing to put a service for multiple waypoints onto a page clearly and only used for single waypoints. Your wording, "location(s) on Earth with the WGS84 geographical coordinates:" is farcical, given that only a single waypoint will ever follow it. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 16:26, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

So when someone clicks on a navbox for a coordinate collection they'll be given a page for accessing single coordinates, with a few coordinate collection options buried within? If they want a coordinate collection, why not give them a list only of coordinate collection tools? Clicking on coord is for single coordinates, clicking on a coordinate collection link is for a collection. (SEWilco 17:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC))

That's what is currently done for single coordinates, yes, people have to look for their preferred service from the middle of various others, instead of being offered a selection chosen by a very small group of editors whose preferences may not match. For a map service the difference in the number of coordinates in a set is so slight that there's no reason why a set should be treated any different, though we can try to make it more obvious than the current texts in GeoTemplate that some of the linked services will use more than just the clicked coordinates. There are many other identifiers and reusable data in articles than just coordinates, yet no general use links have been spammed around Wikipedia for their collective use, even though such services might be "useful" in cases like searches with multiple authors or publication ids or so. If you're not happy with some part of GeoTemplate or GeoHack, there are redesign proposals where any ideas for user interface improvement would be most welcome. --Para 20:26, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

"For a map service the difference in the number of coordinates in a set is so slight that there's no reason why a set should be treated any different" - while you're making such patently absurd statements as that one; and while we're comparing articles with a single defining waypoint with articles containing dozens of waypoints from several continents; it seems that having a meaningful discussion on this issue, with you, will be impossible. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 21:12, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Para is again using "straw man" arguments. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 16:26, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

How about making kml produce a navbox on the right side? Then it could be inserted before a table or list, where it would probably fill in blank space next to the table. We can discuss changing the name from KML to something more generic when we come up with a generic term; probably something in the navbox wording would help find a new name. (SEWilco 17:40, 8 August 2007 (UTC))

I'd have no problem with anything like that (properly and accessibly implemented, of course); I've always envisaged that eventually the template would produce a single link to a "GeoTemplate-like" page, separate to that for single waypoints, which had several links to different services on it (indeed, it could have a list of the coordinates (and their hCard/ hCalendar labels, if any) in a table with each being a link to GeoTemplate, too). Renaming would be fine, too. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 17:54, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

An outputting different formats, too. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 23:19, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Consider {{listen}} as an example of a service link. (SEWilco 19:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC))

There was big controversy over having coordinates in articles' titles at all when they were first introduced. Each mention of coordinates now links to a list of dozens of tools, with no other special presentation in articles. Having this kml thing in External links is questionable already, so a big box to showcase the same external links and proprietary formats in an even more visible way will most certainly not pass. The audio and video service templates are different, because they link to a service that performs fallback on a list of methods to play the media, and is entirely in wikipedians' control. If the data for geographical information services was free[3], that would be possible for map linka too, but since most of it isn't, we centralise the resources on a single page away from the articles. --Para 20:26, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Who said anything about "a big box"? More FUD from Para! Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 21:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking of something more like the Commons box, but without the big logo, and brief text such as "A collection of coordinates is available.". At first I thought it should go by the coordinates. But a right-side box in External Links seems better, particularly as it can then be found when you're looking for it. I'm using an external link in the examples but should be a link to a coordinate collection selection page.

---

Here's one based on the box linking to the Labelled Image Editor (used for Labelled Maps):

---

A box stripped down from Commons box:

---

A box based on the Portal box:

(SEWilco 17:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC))

I think you should raise these issues - which have merit (but which require different wording) on the talk page for {{kml}} or WP:GEO. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 17:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. This subdiscussion moved to WP Talk:GEO. (SEWilco 05:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

SEWilco and Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing): Please don't ignore the technical and constructive discussion I tried to raise above. There are strong arguments to drop the kml template because it's redundant and misplaced. I understand the need to look at article's coordinates when it contains many of them - although I haven't seen any other users asking for this. But I strongly advise against Wiki text - and now displayed boxes - whereas both do not belong there! It is enough to geotag a paragraph! The functionality your are seeking has to come from somewhere else. And it's obvious that there are many candidate sevices which can do that. Para gave a show case on this here. Then you mention something like a need to "allow for tables where some rows are hCards and others not; or where some, but not all, of a cell's content is marked up.". First: microformats like hCards are not the agreed way to tag within Wikipedia (and for sure not for geotags) and second: There is no qualified need to geotag table cell whatsoever. Please try to sort this out before in Template:Coord which already is slightly overloaded. -- Geonick 12:34, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Your arguments were not ignored; they were refuted. The motion to delete {{kml}} was soundly defetaed. You do not explain what you meanby "geotag a paragraph", but since many of the coorindinates concerned are not in paragraphs, it's hard to see how that would be a useful alternative. {{coord}} is not the approprate tool for the cases discussed, for reasons already outlined. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 16:41, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Your statement "Para gave a show case on this here." Contains a link which tries to show me part of the world rather than an explanation of the show case. Where in the world is your show case? I think that's just a link to a script which implements a coordinate collection scanning tool, which implements a coordinate collection interface rather than being any sort of example of there being no need for the tool which it is. An article link to a coordinate collection tool is needed, whether it is called KML or something else. (SEWilco 04:45, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

I get the feeling that you both behave a little bit self-governed. Remind, that it's your turn to explain your use and show cases for {{kml}}: Please don't add templates without broader consent and please help keeping Wikipedia manageable. (And this counts for your proposed usage of hCard-geo too, which IMHO does not belong in article texts but in existing templates, as it's already the case now). -- Geonick 09:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

See Category:Lists of coordinates]] for articles which currently use {{kml}}. Obvious candidates are in Category:Geography-related lists (if they don't already have coordinates they still are candidates because they might acquire coordinates). Non-geography articles are also candidates, as shown by the road, canal, and spacecraft splashdown articles which are already using kml; some examples are List of Polish language radio stations, History of United Nations peacekeeping missions, List of horse racing venues. Possible articles whose present structure is not structured for a visible {{coord}} include Community areas of Chicago, Oregon Trail (so some changes would be needed before kml could be used on these, although they have information which could be displayed as a collection of coordinates). (SEWilco 20:07, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

"it's obvious that there are many candidate sevices which can do that." What are some of these coordinate collection services, and indicate how I access them from an article. (SEWilco 20:11, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

Ambiguous claims made in the first paragraph of this section have not been supported so the discussion is retired. (SEWilco 21:43, 18 August 2007 (UTC))

The inititial thread is 5 days old an you already want to close it? My time is limited to explain basic technical knowledge to you so hold on a moment. In addition, isn't it up to someone not being a party in the discussion to close it eventually? -- Geonick 00:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

You made several statements as definitive but couldn't support "a show case" and "there are many candidate services". I could write the technical details of what has been provided, but you have not mentioned why the "show case" is a show case nor list some of the "many" services. (SEWilco 04:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC))

Please note that the globe appearing on the pages is not a function of this template, it's a recent change to the stylesheet for the MediaWiki software which affects all geographic templates including the series this replaced and a number of others, including those on other wikis such as de- and commons. If you wish to have something done about this issue, please raise it at the relevant place on meta: m:Talk:WikiMiniAtlas.

Why is there suddenly a globe icon present? Is that really necessary? - 52 Pickup 09:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Click it. --Dschwen 09:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Ooh, nice! An unrelated question: some time ago there were apparently problems viewing the co-ordinates in the title bar if using one of the different wiki skins - is that still the case? - 52 Pickup 09:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

No issues in Firefox. But the placement is not ideal for the classic and cologneblue skins in Konqueror... --Dschwen 13:34, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Would anyone object to the use of instead of ? I think the former is pleasantly more colorful. --bdesham ★ 19:57, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, me for example. My personal preference would be the clearer simpler look. For the time being I'll have to ask for your understanding that such a change will need a broad consensus. And the people who want to change something are always more vocal than the ones who are happy with how things are, this is especially true for color of the bikeshed type of issues. So taking this into account the consensus should involve a considerable number of people... --Dschwen 20:40, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

If you cannot bear the sight of the cold blue globe there is an undocumented way to customize the image :-) (which I almost forgot about). Put this anywhere in your monobook.js file:

var wma_settings =
{
 buttonImage : 'http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Sciences_de_la_terre.svg/15px-Sciences_de_la_terre.svg.png'
}

Okay, no big deal. (Thanks for the fix.) My point was that my proposed image is clearer and simpler, at least IMHO :-) I'm using that JavaScript snippet, so it doesn't really matter to me now. --bdesham ★ 20:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I really didn't want to dismiss you point completely, I'm just saying it's a matter of taste and proportions (in terms of the number of users that will be affected by the change vs. users that have actively demanded it until now). We'll see how it develops. If I get more requests I'll take it under consideration. --Dschwen 20:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

No worries. I do understand the need for consensus. --bdesham ★ 03:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Document what the globe does. (SEWilco 21:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC))

The template page just needs a link to meta:WikiMiniAtlas it is all documented there. --Dschwen 06:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

Please insert the following sentence in the into of this templates help section:

Clicking the blue globe activates the WikiMiniAtlas (needs Javascript)

Why can't the /doc subpage be used for this? --MZMcBride 04:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Uhm, because I didn't check the template source and had no clue it existed :-). Done. --Dschwen 17:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

There is one major problem with the globe icon, IMO. Check out List of features on the Moon or Daedalia Planum to see it (there are probably plenty of other places, those are just where I first saw this). Since globes other than Earth don't seem to be supported, could the template be modified to disable it if a different globe is specified? Having a little picture of Earth that leads to a map of Earth isn't appropriate when the location is on another celestial body entirely. Bryan Derksen 02:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Good point, I'll see what I can do about that. --Dschwen 06:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, this might take a little time to implement, in the meantime please note that the map-hack page that coord links too does not process the globe parameter either. Nonetheless I have an idea... --Dschwen 07:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, by the way, there is now an experimental lunar satellite mode. The scalebar is still wring, and it shows earth markers. But that is going to change. It is live anyhow to fill the lunar imagery cache on the server gradually. --Dschwen 17:46, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Is that part of Google Sky or Google Moon? (SEWilco 19:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC))

It is in no way related to any Google product, uses no Google software, no Google servers, no Google data, and most importantly, if you zoom in to the max you won't get cheese ;-). --Dschwen 19:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

In that case, in what is this moon mode? I don't see it documented in {{coord}}. (SEWilco 21:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC))

What do you mean by in what is this moon mode? How did you get the idea it had anything to do with Google in the first place? --Dschwen 21:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

What tool has this "lunar satellite mode" and how is it connected to {{coord}}? (SEWilco 21:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC))

Ahhh, sorry, the whole discussion was spawned in the wrong place anyhow. It refers to the meta:WikiMiniAtlas, which appears next to coord templates but really doesn't have anything to do with the template itself. I since added a comment in the documentation section of {{coor}}. --Dschwen 22:01, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Moon mode is *awesome*, but it really needs to come up in that mode when you click the icon for a coord with a globe:moon. Though I guess getting the label issues sorted out first is more important. It does highlight the problems with folks randomly extending the coor template... since I doubt any of the software previously doing coord extraction handles this. --Gmaxwell 13:10, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Please note that the globe appearing on the pages is not a function of this template, it's a recent change to the stylesheet for the MediaWiki software which affects all geographic templates including the series this replaced and a number of others, including those on other wikis such as de- and commons. If you wish to have something done about this issue, please raise it at the relevant place on meta: m:Talk:WikiMiniAtlas.

So we're inlining icons amongst article text now, are we? For Christ's sake, this is an encyclopedia, not a toilet door. Hesperian 05:18, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Put this anywhere in your monobook.js file:

var wma_settings =
{
 enabled :false;
}

or, just try clicking on the icon once... --Dschwen 06:45, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

What it does is just super. But inlining icons is unacceptable. Hesperian 11:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

• I saw it once, clicked the link and now I don't see it anymore. I haven't made the above change to my monobook.js. In any case, I agree that the icon is in a bad place. If you really must have it, why not only put it beside the title coordinates? Apparently, having the icon appear breaks the layout in several of the articles using {{Infobox Mountain}}. RedWolf 06:20, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

• • Specific examples please? I checked Ben Nevis, Krakatoa, K2, Fuerteventura, and Kangchenjunga none of them have any layout problems. Also two of them would be completely without a maplink if WMA was title link only, the same is true for a great many articles.
  • Once there are examples we can figure out what to change to avoid the problem. --Gmaxwell 13:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

• • Please try to clear yor browser cache (and try Shift+Reload). Could you point me to an example where it breaks the layout. As for only showing the globe for the title coordinate, put this anywhere in your monobook.js file:

var wma_settings =
{
 onlytitle :true;
}

• • Refer to the post by hike395 below. It appears that IE7 is perhaps the missing link. RedWolf 07:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

This is the only case I know of where icons are being inlined in Wikipedia article text. Therefore this represents a major change to the encyclopedia's modus operandi. You should be seeking approval to do so, not sticking it in and then telling people who complain to change their monobook settings. Hesperian 11:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

It was approved by a pretty wide audience. It wasn't even installed site-wide by its author. It's been seen by several WMF board members... and despite being seen by some many tens of thousands of Wikipedians, and hundreds of thousands of members of the public, you're the only person with a response like *this*. Would you take a minute to read what you are writing? You're coming off as a mouth-foaming jerk. Take a second to calm down, realize that this is not the end of the world, and lets have a polite discussion and see if we can find a solution which will work for everyone.

Dschwen asked for an example, since you're so upset about this you surely must know of one...--Gmaxwell 12:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

He wasn't talking to me. Hesperian 12:59, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

And that prevents you from finding one how? --Gmaxwell 13:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I am opposed to inlining icons in text. That obliges me to find an example of RedWolf's complaint that it breaks layout how? Hesperian 13:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

So, you're opposed to it to the point of throwing insults, yet you are unable to produce some clear examples of why its harmful? ...you're going to have to do better in order to demand a change with something which huge numbers of people either like or don't have a problem with. Setting WMA to title only isn't a solution due to the use of coor in tables and infoboxes which are cases where it's clearly useful and not objectionable even to you (I think). Please show some examples where it's causing harm, and we'll figure out how to mitigate that. --Gmaxwell 13:20, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

"Mouth-foaming jerk" is the only insult I can see in the above. Not that I'm complaining - that's much better than the last thing you called me. But the sheer hypocrisy galls me somewhat.

Any article that uses this template inline now has an icon stuck in the middle of a sentence somewhere in the text. e.g. Augusta, Western Australia. That is just awful. You're quite right that the use of this globe icon is not objectionable in tables and infoboxes (and the functionality it enables is just marvelous). But it shouldn't have been rolled out into this template, given its legitimate inline usage. Someone should have written {{coord on steroids}}, and manually substituted where appropriate.

Hesperian 13:56, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I said you were acting like one, and I asked you to calm down.. I don't know how else to characterize "For Christ's sake, this is an encyclopedia, not a toilet door", your italiticed text, and the misinformed "You should be seeking approval to do so"... but I'm glad we're past that now.

You seem to have some confusion about how this works. The icons are a software feature that acts on the external links. They aren't part of coord at all, and they appear on the raw external links. As I pointed out on your user talk, it's a long-standing standard feature of Mediawiki to include link-type icons on links to non-webpages. So the map isn't much of a change beyond that.

The article you provided as an example would be completely without map button if it were somehow excluded. .. How do you propose we resolve this? I'm thinking about something along the lines of changing the software to perform the following:

• Scan the links on the page, if a link has a parameter which indicates that it's in-the-text, change the map icon to be small and to the right more like a classic external link icon. Build a list of all links seen in the page.
• During the scan will look for the 'primary coordinate' for the page. The 'primary coordinate' will either be the first link on the page with a primary parameter, or it will be the first link without a not-primary parameter if no primary is provided.
• If there is a primary coord, add a map globe button tab to the top of the page.

If we did this we would increase the accessibility of the popup map, and I think we would address your issue with the big icon (instead using a tiny marker as we typically do for external links). Pages that use coords in the text proper would need to be changed... but that usage is fairly uncommon, and changing them will be useful in helping to improve the reliability of coord extraction (sometimes we mis-identify article locations because it talks about some other location). --Gmaxwell 15:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Per your explanation here and on my talk page, if this is just another special case of using link icons on links to non-webpages (it would be a very special case if it were, but let that pass) then it should be placed after the text like all the others, and shrunk down to a less obtrusive size like all the others. I see SEWilko has already proposed the same below. Hesperian 01:38, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

For the record I agree with Hesperian that the inline image in prose is hideous. It should be restricted to instances where it is in the title section of the page only. Orderinchaos 18:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. In the title bar, it is brilliant, but inline it is just too obtrusive. I've now been removing inline display of this template within some infoboxes, setting to display the co-ordinates only in the title. If the template were set to display the icon only in the title, I think that would be the most agreeable solution. - 52 Pickup 10:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

How about making icon a display option like title and inline, so if somebody wants it — say in a table of locations — they can have it, without it appearing in the middle of text.

—wwoods 15:07, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I've added a notice to the top of this heading re the nature of the problem. If someone with more knowledge than me could edit the notice to indicate where exactly this discussion should be taking place (i.e. somewhere where people who can actually fix it may be reading), I'd welcome that. Orderinchaos 15:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Would it be better to have the globe after the coordinates, and perhaps shrink it to match the size of the PDF icon? Having the icon before the numbers is visually jarring for text which used to be "Coordinates: 12,34". (SEWilco 01:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC))

Well thats part of my long suggestion above. Doing that would be visually more correct and more consistent with the mediawiki's handling of external links... but it would really hurt the already low visibility of the tool. So I suggested combining that with a more prominent mapping tab. --01:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• Well maybe someone can answer this one for me. I see the globe icon when using Firefox 2.0.0.6 on my Mac but I do not see the icon when using Firefox 2.0.0.6 on windoze. What??? RedWolf 01:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Is JS enabled in your FFox windows? This kind mapping tool fundamentally requires Javascript, so you won't see the link if it can't work. Um.. Thats my only guess. --Gmaxwell 01:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

    Yes, JS is enabled. Perhaps someone can provide the actual HTML/JavaScript used to cause the icon to appear? RedWolf 07:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

It looks like the globe icon is added by Javascript associated with the WikiMiniAtlas, which is discussed at m:Talk:WikiMiniAtlas. (SEWilco 17:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC))

The source code for the interested reads as follows. Can't find the java or css code in the source code or in any of the linked CSS's. Orderinchaos 18:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Augusta is located at <span class="plainlinksneverexpand"><a href="http://tools.wikimedia.de/~magnus/geo/geohack.php?params=34_18_52_S_115_9_31_E_type:city(11,031)" class="external text" title="http://tools.wikimedia.de/~magnus/geo/geohack.php?params=34_18_52_S_115_9_31_E_type:city(11,031)" rel="nofollow"><span title="Maps, aerial photos, and other data for this location"><span style="white-space:nowrap">34°18′52″S,</span> <span style="white-space:nowrap">115°9′31″E</span></span></a></span>

I think the source code is in Meta:Wikiminiatlas.js but discuss at m:Talk:WikiMiniAtlas. (SEWilco 19:20, 26 August 2007 (UTC))