Talk:Vassal/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Vassal. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

I'm not sure how worthy of the praise is the [version] of this article, especially since it does not deal with "vassal" but with "vassalité" but the present jumbled article is far below what should be acceptable. It seems that many articles under the "feudalism" category were written by one person who read one book and did not understand it well enough. 192.115.133.141 17:06, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I've tagged the article. Additionally, some of the quotes made in it are out of context or not interpreted correctly. 74.110.194.234 (talk) 15:07, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I think it should be merged here for obvious reasons: it provides some example of this relationship. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 03:47, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• Support ~ Lhynard (talk) 15:57, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Vassal state would be merged better with client state, keeping "vassal" restricted more to contexts of feudalism.--Wetman (talk) 17:58, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Weak oppose. I am not an expert in this area, but my encounters with the word "vassal" are in line with what Wetman has described. Location (talk) 14:57, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Oppose - different topics. I don't know if you realize, but the background and usage of the term vassal greatly differs between what is used in this article, and in the vassal state article. This one deals with the Medieval or European topic, while vassal state doesn't imply Western states. From this article, "vassal or feudatory is a person who has entered into a mutual obligation to a lord or monarch in the context of the feudal system in medieval Europe." Now check the vassal state article and see if it fits with the medieval vassals described here. 68.101.102.227 (talk) 07:24, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Oppose - "Vassal" should be restricted to the role and obligations of the individual person in the feudal lord-vassal relationship, whereas "vassal state" should focus on the nature and role of the subordinate or client state. In fact, this proposal has been open so long that I propose we close it and concentrate on developing the different articles for now. --Bermicourt (talk) 15:47, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I feel like the overview paragraph should be revised so we understand who is taking what role in the 'mutual obligation'. Military support and certain privileges? Who is exchanging which for what? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.218.87.188 (talk) 09:37, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Please sketch the differences between a serf and a vassal. The master of one might be lower (the lord of the town manor) than the master of another (a regional lord). The legal rights within evolving feudal society might be greater (one has ownership rights to land, the other not). They might be prominent in different times of history (the vassal later, as larger units of social organization emerged). Perhaps, if you have knowledge I lack, it would help to treat manorialism and working the land (agriculture) separately from the added layer of knights, feudalism and military service (politics). I can't write it, but looking at the units of social organization, economic rights and obligations, and the evolution of different players over time ("vassal" "serf" "freeman" "lord" "knight") would satisfy the call others have made for better sociology, economic history, whatever. Jerry-VA (talk) 19:24, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

The first sentence,

A vassal[1] is a person regarded as having a mutual obligation to a lord or monarch, in the context of the feudal system in medieval Europe.

would imply that the vassal stands in equal obligation to the lord/monarch as the lord/monarch does to him (presumably a vassal was always male). I doubt this was the case. The vassal may have paid his taxes or gone to battle for the king. I doubt the king did the same.

Not only that, but I've skimmed briefly through the article and I still have no idea what a vassal is or was. You can hardly expect most people to do much more. They want answers, they are not asking WP to provide the motivation to go elsewhere and find the answers. Presumably, the point of an encyclopedia article is to make knowledge simple for and accessible to the broader public, which in my opinion this article does not do. Dynasteria (talk) 09:15, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

This section could really use some expansion. There needs to be some explanation of how Japanese vassalage was different from Western vassalage. The structure seems nearly identical, but titles of the parties involved are changed. Instead of a king there was the  Shōgun. Instead of dukes and counts there were daimyō. Instead of knights there were samurai. I don't see any major differences beyond that. The vassals payed tribute of soldiers and supplies to a central ruler in exchange for lordship over land they could use for farming. This land was worked by peasants who performed the manual labor which earned the lords enough wealth to expand their armies. This seems very similar to Western feudalism. I'm wondering what the significant differences are. This might be something I look into. Stefanrush1 (talk) 11:28, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

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