Talk:Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

	Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was one of the Media and drama good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result October 24, 2005 Peer review Reviewed August 9, 2006 Peer review Reviewed August 2, 2007 Good article nominee Listed May 15, 2009 Good article reassessment Delisted Current status: Delisted good article

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Somebody keeps reverting her role to "spokesperson" (and that of Weyoun to "the Dominion's military and diplomatic representative in the Alpha Quadrant"), a laughable misrepresentation. Per Memory Alpha, "She was chosen by the Great Link ... to represent the interests of the Changelings in both the Gamma and Alpha Quadrants", not Weyoun. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:44, 8 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Chosen... to represent the interests" is the definition of "spokesperson". She speaks for the Changelings. From a dramatic standpoint, she personifies the voice of the Founders in a way that can be represented as a character played by a single actress. That's what a spokesperson is.(Moreover, she's only the "commander of Dominion forces in the Alpha Quadrant" or whatever for at most two seasons. She plays the role of spokesperson for the Founders in every single one of her appearances from the start of season 3.) AJD (talk) 07:03, 8 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing no objection after some 36 hours, I've restored the description as "spokesperson". AJD (talk) 21:31, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ajd: Sorry, I've been busy. "Spokesperson" does not do her justice as the prime mover of the Dominion War. Weyoun is subordinate to her, and his authority is far above that of a "spokesclone". Clarityfiend (talk) 21:51, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's time for more input from somebody else. I'm going to ask for other opinions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Science Fiction#DS9 disagreement. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:55, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

While I don't think "spokesperson" is inaccurate per se, it does seem to under-represent who she is. Why not have our cake and eat it too? How about the phrasing Spokesperson for the Founders of the Dominion who later leads the invasion of the Alpha Quadrant? — Czello 22:14, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think she really does "lead the invasion." (As she says in Behind the Lines, "I'm content to leave the details of the war to the Vorta.") She's not involved in actually commanding the war effort until the very late stages. We could say something like "Spokesperson for the Founders, who later commands Dominion forces in the Alpha Quadrant" if you insist. AJD (talk) 00:51, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Who leads the Dominion in the Alpha Quadrant: (a) a Vorta, or (b) a Vortan god? Weyoun always, always defers to his god. When does Weyoun ever give strategic orders to any Dominion forces? Leaving the details to someone else is called delegating, something leaders do all the time. When the good guys get the upper hand, who orders the retreat to Cardassia, without consulting anybody? Who gives orders to the Breen? Clarityfiend (talk) 08:55, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The thing is, the invasion of the Alpha Quadrant begins in "In Purgatory's Shadow" and Salome Jens's character isn't involved in commanding the war effort until after "Behind the Lines". When she shows up on DS9 in "Behind the Lines" Dukat has never met her before; she's there to visit Odo, not because she has any responsibility to take command (though yes, she does eventually give some commands). Who's running the war for the first six months? And anyway, we wouldn't say FDR was the "commander of American forces in WWII," even though as President he did have the role of commander-in-chief; the actual commanders were the generals to whom the commander-in-chief delegates the task of commanding. AJD (talk) 16:18, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That is illogical. The Dominion is a state, with armed forces. FDR was the head of the equivalent, the United States. Comparing the US military with the Dominion is a false equivalence. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:23, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand. The Dominion is a state, with armed forces; so is the US. FDR was the head of state of the US and thereby commander-in-chief of the armed forces; the Founders are the same for the Dominion. FDR, despite being commander-in-chief, wouldn't be described as "commander of the American forces" since the task was delegated to actual military commanders; similarly, the Founder wouldn't be described as "commander of Dominion forces" since the task was delegated to the Vorta.

In any event, I feel we're getting sidetracked here. I think Salome Jens's character's main role in the DS9 is as a spokesperson for the Founders, but I have no particular objection to also saying in the character box that she eventually takes command of the Dominion forces in the Alpha Quadrant. I was just objecting to saying that she "led the invasion of the Alpha Quadrant", because Dominion forces were entrenched in the Alpha Quadrant, and the wormhole was blocked, for months before she was involved in leading military operations; she didn't take over until after "the invasion of the Alpha Quadrant". AJD (talk) 00:05, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@AJD: If not "leads the invasion", how about "oversees the invasion", which is probably more accurate. — Czello 08:25, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'd still rather say something like "(eventually) oversees the war effort", since by the time she plays a role the invasion per se has already taken place. AJD (talk) 07:38, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ajd: That'd be fine with me. So how about this as the proposed text: Spokesperson for the Founders of the Dominion who later oversees the war effort in the Alpha Quadrant? — Czello 08:27, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, I suppose so. AJD (talk) 19:21, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Oversees" is too weak; she "leads". Otherwise, I can live with it. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:00, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As we've discussed, though, she doesn't do much leading. That's mostly left to the Vorta. "Oversees" also isn't inaccurate -- it could be interpreted as both being a direct leadership and also indirect. — Czello 21:59, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be good if all episodes had a consistent intro and currently I see two versions as the most common ones:

Set in the 24th century, the series follows the adventures on Deep Space Nine, a space station located adjacent to a stable wormhole between the Alpha and Gamma quadrants of the Milky Way Galaxy, near the planet Bajor.

and

Set in the 24th century, the series follows the adventures on Deep Space Nine, a space station located near the planet Bajor, as the Bajorans recover from a brutal, decades-long occupation by the imperialistic Cardassians.

Wouldn't it be better to combine both and make it the standard intro for all DS9 episodes?

Set in the 24th century, the series follows the adventures on Deep Space Nine, a space station located near a stable wormhole between the Alpha and Gamma quadrants of the Milky Way Galaxy, near the planet Bajor, as the Bajorans recover from a brutal decades-long occupation by the imperialistic Cardassians. --- castorbailey (talk) 23:44, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Eh, I disagree; I think the article ledes are long enough already and don't need any extraneous information in them. What I do is I include the information about the background that's relevant to understanding the episode: "a space station located near the planet Bajor, as the Bajorans recover from a brutal, decades-long occupation by the imperialistic Cardassians" for episodes that are about Bajor and the Cardassians; "a space station located adjacent to a stable wormhole between the Alpha and Gamma quadrants of the galaxy" for episodes that involve the wormhole and the Gamma Quadrant, and so on. I just use "Set in the 24th century, the series follows the adventures on the space station Deep Space Nine" for episodes like, I dunno, Chrysalis where neither Bajor nor the wormhole are relevant to the plot. So... I guess I don't particularly see the need for consistency in terms of what kind of background information is included in the article lede. AJD (talk) 01:09, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think its better to have customized introductions. For one, many episodes are on planets or the other spacecraft. Starspotter (talk) 16:12, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think a customized intro would be reasonable because it's about the series as a whole not about a specific episode. So which version do you think is the better one? castorbailey (talk) 14:05, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? I don't want to speak for Starspotter, but I think "customized" means 'not standardized; tweaked to be appropriate to each article'; the answer to "which is the better one" will be different for different articles. The sentence is about the series as a whole, but the article is about the episode, and so we should use the lede to give background information about the series that's relevant to the episode. AJD (talk) 15:31, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry you are right, LOL. I don't know why I confused standardized and customized. So there seems to be agreement that the intro should fit the given episode. castorbailey (talk) 13:06, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I guess my question is whether there's any harm caused by having different leads for the episode articles as long as they're still hitting all of the major relevant points (which we can enumerate if needed). Much as "Previously on..." segments would by necessity evolve over time, I think there's room for the leads to do the same. DonIago (talk) 01:04, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This show is commonly called "DS9", both in sources and by viewers. Sources that do: Variety, Polygon, Trek Movie, Screen Rant, IGN, and many more. 331dot (talk) 11:26, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, this article uses the abbreviation throughout. 331dot (talk) 11:29, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've noticed in some episode articles (e.g. Profit_and_Loss_(Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine)), recent edits have italicized the name of the station as Deep Space Nine or DS9. But on this page, it is not italicized. I looked at the MOS and perhaps the italics is correct based on MOS:NAT. But I noticed it creates confusion; currently Deep Space Nine means the show and Deep Space Nine is the station. Should the station name remain as is or be italicized? Harveydrone (talk) 23:28, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]