Talk:Saiō

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus for the proposed move to Saigū. Following Immanuelle's query below, asking if this can be redone as a move to Ise Saiō, I suggest that be opened as a fresh RM below this one; and ping all the participants here so they can give their opinion. I don't think there's quite enough clear support for that to just move it immediately, but hopefully with another proposal and another week, a consensus will form. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 18:33, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Saiō → Saigū – The Kokugakuin University page which I see as the most authoritative English language source uses the term Saigū to refer to the Saio https://d-museum.kokugakuin.ac.jp/eos/detail/?id=8608 and Japanese wikipedia uses Saigū to refer to her as well

I also proposed a move on the palace Saikū for the same reason. If we go through with this merge we might want Saikū to redirect here, or be the main title, but if we do that give some time for changing all the links there Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 17:53, 24 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:51, 1 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 00:45, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Dekimasu @Eirikri think you two will be very helpful on this Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 10:13, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@BilledMammal@Amakuru is there any procedure for changing the proposed title? Consensus among move supporters has seemed to move entirely to Ise Saiō as the target after @Invokingvajras clarified a translation error that almost everyone was making Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 18:25, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot support changing the name of this article from it's common use name (Saiō) to a name not commonly used. Some examples of official Japanese sites on the topic: Official Local Tourism site [Ise], Official Saiku Museum [Historical Museum], Official Meiwa Town (location of Saiku) information guide [[1]]. The term "Saiō" is used at the location and in all of the relevant documentation and sites related to it, including at the Ise Grand Shrine. I'm not sure if the Kokugakuin University article is using an old/historical usage of the name or a mistranslation, but it is most definitely not the name used today. A simple online search of the two terms will show this. I do want to say that I appreciate your work and your interest in this topic. Ka-ru (talk) 14:44, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you @Ka-ru also your signature is broken Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 06:46, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

fixed – wbm1058 (talk) 17:15, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I still think the other one is more important and Saiku/Saigu might be best as disambiguation pages Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 06:58, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: One last relist, to hopefully determine a consensus either way BilledMammal (talk) 00:45, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned on the category's discussion, there's confusion about the terminology. There are two kinds of Saiō/Itsuki no miko, the Ise Saiō (also called Saigū, or as Wikipedia seems to prefer Saikū) and Kamo Saiō (also called Sai'in). Because the Ise Saiō was more popular, the general term "Saiō" is often used to refer to her. I support keeping the distinction. -Invokingvajras (talk) 03:03, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Invokingvajras so to clarify Saio is a category of all princess-priestesses, and Saigu is the one at Ise and Saiin is the one at Kamo? Does this mean that you think the page should be moved in order to make the distinction clearer? This one seems to only talk about the Saigu and not the general concept, and looking at other languages it seems ja:斎王 refers to the general concept, and ja:斎宮 refers to the specific one at Ise, but other languages are a big hit or miss, indicating almost every other language is confused about this.

Maybe we could make Saio into a disambiguation page or a brief explanation of the concept and links to Saiin and Saigu, after correcting links to Saio that are obviously intended for Saigu of course Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 07:39, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Invokingvajras I noticed that you changed the wikidata to Ise Saiō to make the distinction clearer. I support this and think that Ise Saiō should be the unambiguous title, and Saigu actually increases ambiguity. As such I created Ise Saiō as a redirect and I now strong support moving this page to Ise Saiō over the redirect, and I oppose moving it to Saigū which I see as increasing ambiguity. I created the dab pages Saiō and Saikū and believe all such links should be changed. I will fix some of the links and I believe eventually Saiō should be the place of Saiō (disambiguation). I will then go on a wikibreak for a while Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 04:07, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I seem to see some confusion over some of the terms. Saiō refers to the princess/priestess, and Saikū refers to the residence. I've previously supplied links to show this. There seems to be some people connecting Saikū with the term Saigū and implying that Saikū refers to the princess/priestess without any evidence provided, which it does not, it is the residence only, situated in Meiwa Town, Mie Prefecture (again, refer back to my previous links). Again, all I can say is that the authority on this topic is the Saikū Historical Museum [Historical Museum], a Japanese national museum set up on site for the sole purpose to research, educate, and preserve all things to do with the Saiō/Saikū. If people want, I'd be happy to rename the article "Ise no Saiō". I can't see "Saigū" being anything more than a redirect as it is simply not commonly used (where Saiō is the common -only- usage at the site, at Ise, in the town, in the prefecture). I'd be happy with a Saiō disambiguity page as I am aware that there were other Saiōs, though Ise no Saiō, as stated, was the most well know. I've just notice the Saikū article is now called Saikū Palace, which isn't quite accurate, but I can live with it. Ka-ru (talk) 15:48, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add, this is the description directly from the museum's site: "Welcome to the Saiku Historical Museum. “Saiku” refers to the residential palace and office of the Saio, an unmarried female member of the imperial family appointed to serve the Ise Jingu shrine complex. This museum conducts research into the Saiku based on archaeological excavations and documents, and makes its findings available to the public. Long since abandoned, the palace and office of the Saio now lie in ruins under the ground. The Saiku Historical Museum actually stands on a corner of the vast archaeological site of the Saiku." Hence why you can see calling the other article "Saiku Palace" is kind of like saying Saiku Palace Palace (like ATM machine). Ka-ru (talk) 16:05, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So super, super sorry for 3 posts in a row, but there had been something bugging me and it finally hit. I think the whole Saigū thing is a massive translation misunderstanding. Think Ise Grand shrine: Ise Jingū 伊勢神宮 with the 宮 being gū. It's made of up the inner and outer shrines, Naikū: 内宮 with the 宮 being kū and Gekū: 外宮 with the 宮 being kū. All of these are places with the 宮 either translated as gū or kū. We have Saikū: 斎宮 with the 宮 being kū being the place where the Saiō lives. Saiō: 斎王 now with the honorific 王 ō representing a person, not a place. Hence why Saikū is the residence of the Saiō (see the museum description and all the previous links above). Saigū is 斎宮. It's exactly the same as Saikū. It's the residence, not the person. 斎宮 is appearing on some sites as Saigū and others as Saikū. It is NOT 斎王, which is the Saiō. This has been bugging me this entire time, and I just couldn't pin it down. Now it makes sense. Changing this article's name to Saigū would be the equivalent of calling these princess/priestesses plots of land. In light of this, can we change "Saikū Palace" back to "Saikū" and redirect "Saigū" there? Ka-ru (talk) 17:35, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure this is a Synecdoche, like how people say the American government is the white house or the president is the Oval office. Not 100% sure about the context but considering what @Invokingvajras said I think keeping this as Saio instead of at least moving this to Ise Saio and moving Saiin (priestess) to Kamo Saio would not make sense.

I see there as being two reasonable outcomes of this

1. Saigu is a disambiguation page for the palace and the Ise Saio, Saiin is moved to Kamo Saio
2. This page is moved to Saigu and Saiin (priestess) stays as is

I cannot see a situation where it makes sense too not move at least one of the pages for consistency with the fact that there are two Saios. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 02:38, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I definitely agree that Saigū should be a disambiguation page (based on the one source you provided) for the palace (Saikū) and the Saiō. The palace article should return to its original name of "Saikū" based on the numerous sources that I've provided, the main one being the national museum (the actual authoritative source on the matter). I think that, as there are more than one Saiō, Saiō should also be a disambiguation page that points to the "Ise Saio" and the "Kamo Saiō". If the Kamo Saiō has the distinct name of "Saiin", then I don't mind which name is used as long as the other is a redirect to it. The current Saiō article should then be renamed "Ise Saiō". (I think) that would resolve all the loose ends and satisfy all the sources. Ka-ru (talk) 04:01, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is consensus against the move as proposed. There is no consensus for a move to create a (now G14'd) disambiguation page. Eirikr provides some analysis on possible ambiguity of the term "saiō", but there exists Ka-ru's initial objection, which seems to accurately summarize related discussions at Talk:Saikū. This discussion has also not determined the subjects' common names. Furthermore, the deletion of the associated dab has been uncontested for almost two weeks, which hints at a lack of strong consensus to disambiguate. (non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 07:26, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Saiō → Ise Saiō – We previously had a requested move to Saigū but @Invokingvajras: explained well how in fact we had been misunderstanding what a Saiō was.

I have since changed almost all links to Saiō to Ise Saiō in preparation for this, so the disambiguation page will have very few links https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Sai%C5%8D

Saigū now redirects to Saikū. There is a bit of Saikū vs Saigū debate brought up by @Ka-ru:, so we might want to move Saikū Palace to Saigū Palace, but I see this as a separate issue and do not know the solution. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 18:50, 13 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans (talk) 19:11, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Saiō (disambiguation) → Saiō – see #Uninvolved administrator analysis – wbm1058 (talk) 16:39, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just going to leave this final comment here as, after being logged in to this account for the last 17-ish years, I think my time here is done and it's time to log out permanently. All of this started because you (Immanuel) pointed out that a certain university used the term "Saigū" to refer to the princess/priestess of Ise Shrine. I provided many sources, including the most important source, the Japanese national Saikū Historical Museum. The terms Saikū and Saiō have never been in doubt. The whole discussion we had was, in essence, how to incorporate this other term, Saigū, which could refer to either the Saikū or the Saiō. Agreement was made that Saigū could be disambiguity page. But somehow, whoever made that page, made it "Saikū", which has no ambiguity. I just don't understand the process any more. Discussions are had, sources are provided, solutions found, and then something completely different happens. I no longer see the point in participating. Thank you, Immanuelle, I enjoyed our discussion. Wish you well. Ka-ru (talk) 23:08, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per Ka-ru, as Ise Saiō is clearly the primary topic with respect to usage and I don't see any sources in Saiin (priestess) refer "Saiin" by "Kamo Saiō". A hatnote at the top of each article is enough for this and the dab page could be deleted then per WP:ONEOTHER. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 04:37, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@BilledMammal@Amakuru I hope that it is acceptable to edit the discussion a bit to concentrate everything here. Having a separate discussion at Talk:Saikū was really disruptive. I believe we are experiencing canvassing by Ka-ru, with a lot of messages being posted almost everywhere advocating against this move. Honestly I think whatever @Eirikr: and @Dekmiasu: think on this topic whether pro or anti is the right course of action, but being involved in this discussion is too stressful for me. I am going to take a wikibreak and my vote is support conditional on either one of them not opposing it.Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 06:59, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do not create a new move request when one is already open on the same talk page, see WP:RM#CM. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 08:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Dekimasu mistyped your name Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 19:10, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Japan has been notified of this discussion. Polyamorph (talk) 19:05, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Chiming in late, as various pressing matters IRL have kept me busy.

About Saikū:

• The Japanese term saikū (spelled as 斎宮) appears to be possibly a regional dialectal term, or a variant pronunciation used specifically to refer to the historical facilities where imperial-family women lived and worked as miko (shrine maidens) for the Grand Shrine at Ise.
• The "standard" reading for the 斎宮 kanji spelling appears to be saigū. The Microsoft IME for Japanese offers no set conversion to kanji for the saikū input, but immediately offers 斎宮 when entering saigū.
• Additionally, I can find no Japanese term saikū in any dictionary reference. By way of one example, see the lack of any entry at the さいくう (saikū) spelling here at Weblio, an online resource aggregator: https://www.weblio.jp/content/%E3%81%95%E3%81%84%E3%81%8F%E3%81%86

I can find a term saigū instead, with the same kanji spelling of 斎宮: https://www.weblio.jp/content/%E3%81%95%E3%81%84%E3%81%90%E3%81%86

See also the Nihon Kokugo Daijiten entry at Kotobank: https://kotobank.jp/word/%E6%96%8E%E5%AE%AE-67778

• These entries list synonyms as 斎宮 (itsuki no miya), 斎皇女・斎王 (itsuki no miko), 斎宮 (imi miya), 斎宮 (iwai no miya).

The terms saigū, itsuki no miya, imi miya, and iwai no miya refer to the place -- the 宮 (miya, -gū, literally "palace") -- where the imperial-family women would serve as miko (shrine maiden).

The terms saigū, itsuki no miya, and itsuki no miko also refer to the person -- the imperial-family women themselves. The miko word refers specifically to a person, an unmarried woman working at a shrine in the specific capacity as a miko.

The miya and -gū terms originally would have referred only to the location, and came to refer to the person by way of metonymy.

About Saiō:

• According to the Nihon Kokugo Daijiten entry for 斎王 (saiō) here at Kotobank indicates that this referred either to the saigū working at Grand Shrine at Ise, or to the saiin working at the Kamo shrines in Kyōto proper. As such, presumably our page at [[Saiō]] should be a disambiguation page, directing readers to these other pages.

HTH! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:59, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Eirikr thank you very much for your input. Do you think this page would be best moved or disambiguated? We already have two disambiguation pages related to this topic Saio and Saigu Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 01:53, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ise Saiō is a bad naming as a reference to saigū by natural disambiguator as well, just like "Kamo Saiō" as a reference to saiin. A name like Saigū (priestess) by parenthetical disambiguator is a better option and aligns with Saiin (priestess). NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 02:13, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@NmWTfs85lXusaybq yeah both of my proposals were based on a perception that a natural disambiguation was better than a parenthetical one. I support either one Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 02:20, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your explanation.

• About Saikū: From my understanding, saikū is a variant of saigū only used to refer to the place rather than the person, and should be generally avoided as you implied.
• About Saiō: Do the meaning of saigū and saiin have the same importance? If saigū is the primary topic, a hatnote at the top of Saiō linked to Saiin (priestess) will be used instead.

NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 02:00, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you mean by "do the meaning(s) ... have the same importance" -- that seems like asking if the meanings of "pastor" and "vicar" have the same importance?

Setting aside the "person ↔ location" dichotomy and looking just at the person side of things, as best I understand it, saigū refers to the imperial-family woman serving as priestess specific to Ise, and saiin refers to the imperial-family woman serving as priestess specific to Kamo. Meanwhile, saiō could refer to either.

Perhaps a better analogy then would be that saigū could be "pastor" and saiin could be "vicar", and saiō could be analogous to "clergy" that covers both bases?

Is that kind of what you were asking about? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 02:44, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I would have clarified my point. Wikipedia is not a list of dictionary definitions like Wikitionary per WP:DABDIC: a topic could be primary with respect to usage (e.g. Apple Inc.) or long-time importance (e.g. Apple). If the person meaning of saigū is more commonly and frequently referred as Saiō, or has a more special and important background in Japanese history, it will be the primary topic. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 03:10, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

From what I'm finding, I think any page we have here called [[Saigū]] needs to be a disambig page, pointing readers to the more specific senses of this otherwise-ambiguous word -- to [[Saiō]] for the sense of this word that refers to the imperial shrine maiden at Ise, to [[Saiin]] for the imperial shrine maiden at Kamo, and to [[Saikū]] for the residence of the Saiō. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:11, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Have you mistyped here? saiin has never been referred by saigū. Don't mix the disambiguation of saigū with that of saiō. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 00:23, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, I got my wires crossed -- saigū referring to the imperial miko at Ise is synonymous with saiō, which in turn is the ambiguous one, referring to either the imperial miko at Ise or the one at Kamo.

• Saigū --
  • imperial miko at Ise
  • residence of the imperial miko at Ise
• Saiō --
  • imperial miko at Ise
  • imperial miko at Kamo
• Saikū --
  • residence of the imperial miko at Ise

There are additional synonyms, which I don't think are immediately relevant, so I'll omit these for now. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 07:18, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: I don't understand what Immanuelle is really saying. I can't see any consensus here for now Reading Beans (talk) 19:11, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per nom and Eirikr with no primary topic, but instead move Saiō to Saigū (priestess) which aligns with Saiin (priestess) and Category:Saigū. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 02:14, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Immanuelle, Eirikr, Invokingvajras, and Amakuru: After so much of discussion, I think the consensus about disambiguating Saiō at the base name is clear. However, which title Saiō should be moved to remains uncertain. As you were all involved here, Please share your opinion on this. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 02:50, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I think the discussion is between Saigū and Ise Saio. Although I proposed Ise Saio, I'm convinced Saigū might be the better title. @Eirikr is the one I trust most, as well as @Dekimasu if he decides to participate for their understanding of Japanese. While @Invokingvajras has a lot of knowledge of this indibidual subject. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 02:57, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  As Saigū is a dab page, Saiō could be moved to Saigū (priestess) as I stated in my vote. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 03:04, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I support the move to Saigū (priestess) to be consistent with Saiin (priestess) Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 04:51, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  What I can find in Japanese-language resources regarding the meanings of these terms is as summarized a little bit above, which I'll copy-paste here for clarity:

  • Saigū --
    • imperial miko at Ise
    • residence of the imperial miko at Ise
  • Saiō --
    • imperial miko at Ise
    • imperial miko at Kamo
  • Saikū --
    • residence of the imperial miko at Ise

  In this light, Saikū is the only unambiguous term, and any article title of either Saiō or Saigū would need clarifying / disambiguating.

  My personal thought is that we should have disambig pages at [[Saigū]] and at [[Saiō]], referring readers to pages with more-specific titles. [[Saigū]] would disambig to 1) the imperial miko at Ise, 2) the residence of the imperial miko at Ise (presumably this content would be at the [[Saikū]] page), while [[Saiō]] would disambig to 1) the imperial miko at Ise, and 2) the imperial miko at Kamo.

  I have no particularly strong opinions about how best to clarify titles. I support the [[Saigū (priestess)]] suggestion above as one such option. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:10, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I arrive here at this stalled mess of an RM which has been open for over a month, with no activity in 15 days. This is a very complex request, especially for someone with no particular familiarity with Japanese, to unpack. Observations:

• Immanuelle, the nominator, was blocked three days ago for disruptive editing per a review of their editing restrictions.
• Saiō (disambiguation) was created by Immanuelle on 13 November 2023 – the same day that they submitted this requested move. It has been tagged as having {{one other topic}} since November, making it eligible for G14 speedy deletion as an unnecessary disambiguation page.
• Kamo Saiō, that one other topic, is a redirect, which was also created by Immanuelle on 13 November 2023! Nothing links to that, except the disambiguation that Immanuelle created.
• Kamo Saiō redirects to Saiin (priestess). The term is not mentioned in that article. It has not been added to the article, much less added for sufficient time to assure that it wouldn't be reverted as an invented term or vandalism. I have seen no evidence that Immanuelle did not make this term up out of thin air, though I haven't tried to search for any confirmation.
• "Kamo" refers to Kamo shrines, not a priestess.
• Saiō is, currrently, primarily an unmarried priestess from the Imperial House of Japan. Immanuelle is asserting that Saiō is also an alternative term for Saiin (priestess), female relatives of the Japanese emperor (termed saiō) who served as High Priestesses in Kamo shrines. The distinction between Saiō and Saiin isn't immediately totally clear to me.
• Ise Saiō is also a redirect created by Immanuelle on 13 November 2023! And, again, the specific term Ise Saiō is not mentioned in the target article. "Ise" seems to refer to the Ise Grand Shrine.

I'm partially closing / refactoring this RM by performing a G14 deletion of Saiō (disambiguation), to simplify the request in an attempt to ease the determination of consensus. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:47, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: From my understanding, Saiō (disambiguation) was deleted as Kamo Saiō failed to be a valid entry per WP:DABMENTION, in which case it's not helpful at all to move Saiō to Ise Saiō. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 00:22, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]