Talk:Pasporta Servo
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Deleted the following, not NPOV:
- (June 2003) states that "It is even possible to recruit by means of the Pasporta Servo. Many people learn Esperanto only because they want to travel by means of the Pasporta Servo". (The word approximately translated here as "recruit" is varbi, a term also applied to military recruitment or religious conversion.)
--Chuck SMITH 13:12, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
To Chuck SMITH:
You have deleted my comment, claiming that it is not NPOV. What have you done instead? Offered a translation of the surrounding text, with the sentence "Eblas eĉ varbi per Pasporta Servo" conveniently deleted from the middle of it without so much as a "[...]" to indicate that the translation is not a continuous extract from the original.
What is there in that sentence that you so feel the need to hide in this way?
The meanings I gave for varbi are accurate. I happen not to have a copy of PIV to hand, but here are some mainstream references to prove the point:
- From a well-established Eo-En online translator [1]: varbi = recruit, and hence varbig^i = enlist
- varbi appears in a list of military vocabulary from TEJO [2]
- From a page by Don Harlow, a prominent pro-Esperanto web author [3]: (11) to varb, v.t., < Esp. varbi, to recruit < G werben; see also R. varbovat'. To proselytize, convert, recruit to active participation in a cause. A verb commonly used among English-speaking Esperantists. (Here he is referring specifically to anglophone Esperantists taking the word "varb-" into English, but he is in no way implying that the meaning differs from the Esperanto.)
The fact remains that this is the official page of the Pasporta Servo stating that it is useful for the purposes of varbi, which as discussed has the meaning exactly as stated. This is not merely some third-party comment. This is the Esperanto movement promoting amongst themselves this style of recruitment, and then certain members crying foul whenever anyone points it out in a natural language forum.
I will reinstate the phrase exactly as before, for the above reasons.
Of course if it bothers you that much, because of your connections with UEA you would have sufficient influence to have the phrase removed from the Pasporta Servo official site for the very purpose of then claiming justification to remove it from this Wiki page. I cannot stop that. But at least the history of our discussion here remains on record.
--Trainspotter 21:06, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
To Trainspotter:
I just changed your translation to the official English translation on the PS website. I don't feel that your English translation of the text has the same feel to the original text, but I'll leave it since you feel so strongly about it.
I don't see the point in changing something in the PS website just to change a Wikipedia article. That even seems a bit suspicious to me. Anyway, thanks for your help on trying to keep the Esperanto articles on Wikipedia as neutral as possible and giving your explanation as to why you consider the above statement to be NPOV.
--Chuck SMITH 07:51, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Trainspotter, I removed the "recruitment" line. While Pasporta Servo isn't particularly offensive, it does have a POV. Most Esperantists have an interest in advocacy. While "recruit" is an accurate translation, it is a "loaded word" in English that makes Esperanto advocacy seem more cult-like than it is club-like. While it's possible to paraphrase PS's site to establish a more neutral connotation, I don't see why the phrase is particularly significant to this article. I hope you will understand my reasoning and I look forward to hearing what your thoughts are. --cprompt 07:40, Jun 2, 2004 (UTC)
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