Talk:Lichess

This article was nominated for deletion on 19 November 2017. The result of the discussion was procedural close.

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination. Discussions: RM, Lichess → Lichess.org, Not moved, 27 March 2022 Talk:Lichess#Requested move 27 March 2022

Can some one update it to #1171? I can't change it because I'm still new to wikipedia and this page is semi-protected. Geekpotato24 (talk) 15:51, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A little late but I updated it to the current rank - Beeveria

There is no reason why the title of this page should be italicized. I don't know how to change it, so hopefully someone else does. FinalForm (talk) 04:55, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ITALICTITLE --2605:6000:1019:802D:F581:80B0:CC6B:DF4C (talk) 08:04, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed this by removing the second infobox. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 21:02, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome! Thanks! FinalForm (talk) 04:49, 10 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi fellows, I created a couple of userboxes for Lichess you can use here:

This user is a member of Lichess.

Template:User LiChess

This user plays on Lichess.org as {{{1}}}.

Template:User LiChess1

IQ125 (talk) 10:17, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Can anyone make a new userbox using the new logo? Geekpotato24 (talk) 15:42, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Therefore it should be deleted --76.210.190.130 (talk) 19:26, 19 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. wp:Primary sources can be used: "A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source." And the article does have wp:secondary sources. There is nothing commercial about Lichess, so I don't see any reason to delete the article, or even to remove neutral verifiable content from it. - DVdm (talk) 21:42, 19 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I failed to see the point of this anon edit, so I undid it. Anon reverted it, calling my undo "disruptive editing". Anon, please explain how my undo was disruptive? - DVdm (talk) 17:02, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My edit is a good faith copyedit (CE) of the overall flow and format of the structure of the article. History and overall context of an article’s subject is usually given before before its esoteric features and details. This section, history, also has the most hope in receiving support and citation, and thus demands precedence. Feel free to revert my edits with reasoning beyond calling them pointless when there is clearly a point. --76.210.190.130 (talk) 17:10, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why Financials should be a subsection of History. If you undo that part, I have no objection to the edit. - DVdm (talk) 18:17, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

 Done--76.210.190.130 (talk) 07:38, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Information about past winners of Lichess Titled Arenas is no different than information about past winners of ordinary sporting events. Including the history of these tournaments hurts no one, and while a discussion was created on this topic, no substantial or thorough discussion was had. Removing the section about past winners helps no one-- the section clearly does not fall under the kind of misuse that WP:PROMO and WP:UNDUE were originally intended to address. Can further consideration please be put into this matter?

Almasudi896 (talk) 16:01, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia covers things once they've been covered by other independent sources. Coverage of sporting events is based on citations to sources not connected to the teams/leagues themselves. When Lichess events begin getting regular coverage on NBC, CBS, CNN, NY Times, etc. like professional baseball, football, etc., we should include it. Including something just because it exists, without it having been covered first elsewhere, is often going to be promotional. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:41, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Be that as it may, this is not "promotional" material. Lichess is an open-source and non-profit entity that of course has no advertisers. The explanation under WP:PROMO states "Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a battleground, or a vehicle for propaganda, advertising, and showcasing." The inclusion of a section containing information about past winners of sporting tournaments does not by any means fall under those kinds of misuse. A list of winners, even if it links to Lichess itself, does not in any sense constitute advertising or marketing, and it clearly does not constitute anything that might make this Wikipedia page resemble "a soapbox, a battleground, or a vehicle for propaganda". While I see the wisdom in your point that, "Including something just because it exists, without it having been covered first elsewhere, is often going to be promotional," this content is clearly not promotional. The section should be included. Almasudi896 (talk) 17:11, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There are LOTS of sports that aren't documented to this degree on Wikipedia, because they are lacking significant coverage. If the only place that talks about these Lichess tournaments is Lichess themselves, then they don't belong in Wikipedia. Also, WP:PROMO does explicitly state that the policy applies even in noncommercial instances. --SubSeven (talk) 22:52, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A separate article has been created for the lichess titled arena. Geekpotato24 (talk) 02:03, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To add to the discussion about whether or not results of titled arenas should be included, it is relevant to note that there is extensive coverage on Wikipedia of e.g. the 2018 Speed Chess Championship. Both events are covered exclusively on the respective chess websites hosting the events, both events include world class players, and the only difference I see is that the latter page may be considered more as promotional material due to the commercial nature of Chess.com. I do not see how keeping one page and removing the other is objectively fair.

And for those unaware of the online chess community, one should note that there is a lot of hostility between them, with one website often refusing to cover events from the other website (or even acknowledge the existence of the other website in the first place). The word "lichess" was banned from Chess.com at some point, and there have been fights between Chess.com and Chess24 over "rebranding" content as their own.[1] An event not being covered by other chess websites does not necessarily constitute "insignificance" of the event. Thijs Laarhoven (talk) 13:31, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note that there was a previous RfC at #Extensive coverage of tournaments with no independent reliable sources. If you want to include this you should start a new WP:RFC, but please try to address the comments made there with regard to suitability on Wikipedia. I think the six months between this and the previous one should be adequate; but it really needs some non-primary reliable sources to be likely to succeed. I did find [2] and [3], but I'm not sure whether this is adequate. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 14:55, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Mrjulesd. Apologies for my ignorance, I am new here and trying to find my way around -- how does one start a new RFC? As for suitability, as described above I do not see how more details on Chess.com's events are more suitable than more details on Lichess' events; I can live with not having more details on Wikipedia about the Lichess Titled Arenas due to it being site-specific, but then to be consistent and fair also Chess.com's detailed results pages should all be erased. (And if you want an external link for Lichess Titled Arenas mentioning Carlsen's victories, see e.g. [4] and [5] from respectable news websites.) Thijs Laarhoven (talk) 15:11, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, the instructions are at Wikipedia:Requests for comment. Let me know if you want more help. An important difference between Chess.com and Lichess is that Chess.com also has a publishing section "news" that (as far as I know) is generally seen as being reliable. So the comparison may not be that helpful. Lichess has a blog, but blogs are not usually seen as reliable. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 15:34, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I hope the below works. As for the Chess.com news page being 'reliable', is it reliable if it structurally attempts to avoid mentioning world-class events played at competitor websites (Chess24, Lichess)? Or if, when it does cover those events, it does not mention or link any primary sources not to let any of its users go to the competitor, and to make the users think these events were actually played on Chess.com? (Then again, as mentioned above this toxicity has been around for a long time, with e.g. the 'reliable' ChessBase doing the same and always avoiding any mention of competitor chess sites.) Thijs Laarhoven (talk) 22:51, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Over time various people (presumably mostly new users) have proposed to add a list of titled arena winners to this page, with experienced users rolling back and undoing these edits, marking them as promotional content and primary-source only. An RfC was then held in March 2020 and closed after two members added their opinions, voting against adding such a list.

As stated above, even if the consensus remains that such events are not suitable for Wikipedia, I believe it is inconsistent to then allow for pages such as 2017 Speed Chess Championship and 2018 Speed Chess Championship to exist, with the former having 24 references out of which 24 are to Chess.com, and the latter having 25 out of which 23 are to Chess.com. So I believe the discussion should be reopened, if only to address this inconsistency.

As for the point raised in the previous RfC that this table would double the page length, again this equivalently applies to e.g. 2018 Speed Chess Championship, which is significantly longer than Chess.com.

Regarding external references, as mentioned in Lichess a.o. Forbes, Slate, and Der Spiegel have previously made note of the titled arenas and Carlsen's performance in these events, which suggests there is more interest in these results besides the Lichess community. Thijs Laarhoven (talk) 22:35, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• No, obviously. We just did this and it's Wikipedia Policy 101 stuff: don't add a bunch of stuff promoting events that happen on a particular website citing only that website. WP:OTHERSTUFF is not a good argument (except to draw attention to problems elsewhere). If you see other pages sourced only to the website they're about (and about which there does not exist in-depth coverage in independent reliable sources), feel free to nominate them for deletion. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 23:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2018 Speed Chess Championship, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2017 Speed Chess Championship — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 00:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly do not have a strong preference for either decision, as long as it's applied consistently. Thanks for nominating those other pages. Thijs Laarhoven (talk) 00:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oh. This is yet another SPA advocating to promote Lichess events on Wikipedia. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 23:58, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• No, a particular website citing it does not qualify it as worthy of inclusion. Idealigic (talk) 12:39, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Reluctant but no for me. I am uncomfortable to see regular online events like these compared to sporting events, because of the difficulty difference between gathering a venue, inviting guests and coordinating staff, which are all potentially trivialized in an online scene both in the effort and costs involved. (Which I am fully aware may appear prejudicial, but is merely a comment on the broad observation across many cases on a case-by-case basis.) Take the linked Speed Chess Championships section on the chess.com page being used as an argument for example, these events all each individually has a full-feature news page on their own blog (one page cited per year in the table rows), as well as YouTube stream supplying coverage, commentary and discussions from professional players, which while one may argue this is a strong commercial taste, it certainly brings them very close to the e-sports scene with all the work that makes the event feel like it has historic value and is content focused on both the audience and the contestants, where as it's difficult to advocate for an average audience to watch (let alone be able to find) full-feature coverage for all of every one of the Lichess tournaments. It's not just about the stakes, but more so that the nature of the events are not at all similar. According to this source: [6], $82,775.00 From 107 Tournaments has been awarded. Is there really value in a full catalogue breaking down all of 80 thousand dollars? In the linked Speed Chess Championships section, a $100,000 tournament gets one line of mention. -- Unihedro (talk) 22:44, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]