Talk:Lamane

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I find it odd that the article uses The State Must Be Our Master of Fire: How Peasants Craft Culturally Sustainable Development in Senegal as a source yet ignores what Galvan says about the lamanes, Heroic itinerant founding ancestors entering the valleys of the Siin and Saluum and setting fire to bush and forest to clear it, thus making a foundation for the control/use of the cleared land which passed to his descendants (lineage), this control becoming an inherited office inherited by the eldest male. An office with more than one name at least in the Siin, eg "master of fire" (yal naay), "master of his little piece" (yal ndaak) and laman, now the most popular name.(p52). It also states as fact that it is a loanword in Wolof, despite the considerable linguistic overlap between the Wolof and Serer languages. I can't see how this can possibly be asserted as a fact. Dougweller (talk) 10:08, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Both Trubang and Turabang mean annihilation - this isn't a place so far as I can find anything. These snippets seem to refer to it:

"The battle of Kansala When it ended, the battle of Kansala, a battle fought between Muslim Fulas and animist Mandinkas ended just as it was predicted by the Nyanchos ruler Mansa Janke Wali in "Turubang" which means: total annihilation."[1]

"So the Nyanchos fired upon the Fulas first and the battle of Kansala had started. The Kaabunkas at first were able to ... At this point Janke Wali told his war captains that his fort was now truly named "Turubang""

Lineages of state fragility: rural civil society in Guinea-Bissau by Joshua Forrest - 2003 - 312 pages - Snippet view "As this occurred, King Janke Wali and his chief advisers and leading naanco collectively committed suicide, destroying the entire fort of Kansala with explosives.39 This battle is known in the Mandinka language as Turu-Ba, meaning "the end ..."[2]

"West Africa: Issues 3412-3424- Snippet view In the end. they attacked Kansala, the capital, in a great battle known as Tourban Kello (meaning "final battle" in Mandinka). Kansala fell partly because there was internal discontent among the Kaabu leaders. One of them, Mansa Waali Dione,"

The problem is, this is 1865-66. If you look at Maad a Sinig Maysa Wali Jaxateh Manneh which is about someone who was also called Mansa Waali Dione, this is confusing.

[3] "Such differences suggest that Islam was a complex factor in the formation of Kaabu, and could have been a faultline of sorts between the peoples of Kaabu and Mali. This is also implied by Sereer oral traditions, which, according to Henri Gravrand, suggest that the migration of Guelwaar princes from Kaabu to the Siin region north of the Gambia river occurred circa 1335-40, following the Bartle of Trubang in which the issue of religion may have been a trigger." Green goes on to say the trigger might have been commercial instead of religious. Note the basic difference between this source and this article - Gravrand is reporting oral tradition. This article nowhere states this and any reader who doesn't already know this is oral tradition will see it as history.

We can do OR here - I see late 20th century oral tradition resembling 19th century events. But there seems to be problems with Gravrand's interpretation if my French is any good. Dougweller (talk) 17:36, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The source here [4] says "11 y a dans ce recit de la " bataille de Troubang " tin probable melange de donnees qui eoncernent la migration tres ancienne des Gelwaar vers le Sim et le Saahim, et de details qui ont trait a la tin de la dynastie des Naanco (famille maternelle regnante du Gaabu, qui correspond aux Gelwaar du Sim et du Saalum). La pltipart des informations sont identiques a celles des recits sur la fin de Jirnke Waali Sonne (voir par exemple M. MANE, Contribution a l'histoire du Kaabu, des ? origines au xixe siecle, Bull. I FAN, B" t. 40, n" 1, 1973. p. 142-149 et 156-157, ou l'evenement est situe en 1865; J. VIILLKZ CAUOI;O, Monjur. O Gabit e a sua historia, Bissau, 1948, p. 121-125, qui le place en 1865; ainsi que les etudes recentes de C. ROCHE, C. QUINN et F. A. LKARV). Voir aussi le recit transcrit dans la revue Afrii/ue-Ilisume, n° 1, 1981, p. 35-36.

U semble done difficile de retenir ce recit comme une source sure pour la migration des Gelwaar vers le Sim et le Saahmi, comme le fait par exemple H. GRAVRAND (Le Gabou clans les traditions orates sereer el guehvar, Actes du Colloque sur le Gabou, p. 49-50). Cependant, on peut stipposer que !e depart des Gelwaar s'explique par une guerre ou un conflit de succession au pays du Gaabu. On doit de toute fafon tenir compte d'autres versions fort differentes sur la venue des Gelwaar (voir les differents textes cites dans BF.CKP.R & MARTIN, 1972, p. 742-755, ainsi que les traditions vitlageoises des lies du Saalum)." which seems to confirm what seemed obvious once I started searching. Dougweller (talk) 17:52, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Barlaban: A Mandinka Epic (an excerpt)Kandioura Dramé Callaloo

Vol. 13, No. 3 (Summer, 1990), pp. 435-466

... Kansala-the-Fortress. Today I will name Kansala-the-Fortress." They asked: "What is the name of Kansala-the-Fortress?" He said: "Turban."'14 The people of Kaabu moaned. Also [5]. Dougweller (talk) 18:33, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See Battle of Kansala. Dougweller (talk) 16:55, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Le terme de LAMAN est fort vague et peut designer tout aussi bien des fonctions politiques, telle que celle de chef de village, que des fonctions de gestion de la terre : il est possible qu'a l'origine ces deux fonctions se soient trouvees assez souvent cumulees. Certains auteurs en font l'equivalent Serer du terme Wolof de serigne, tout aussi vague (I). p,164"

The term is very vague and LAMAN designation can just as well political functions, such as village chief, as functions management of the earth's can cause these two functions are found quite often cumulated. Some authors have equivalent of the Serer term Wolof serigne equally vague (I).[6] L'Egalitarisme économique des Serer du Sénégal by Jean-Marc Gastellu O.R.S.T.O.M (1981)ISBN-13: 978-2709905916 Dougweller (talk) 14:16, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]