Talk:House with Chimaeras

	House with Chimaeras is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on October 1, 2007.
Article milestones Date Process Result December 23, 2006 Good article nominee Listed July 17, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted
Current status: Featured article

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This article is looking good, only a few minor things

• References go right after a full-stop, no spaces, only saw this once or twice
• with references [7][4], please put reference 4 before 7, and do that to all of them where there are two references.
• link weekend.marka.ua - Another comprehensive photogallery , remove another comprehensive, just photogallery
• It was designed by Vladislav Gorodetsky, who was regarded as the Gaudí of Kiev, and built in the period of 1901-1902. It was built in the period of 1901-1902 by Vladislav Gorodetsky, who was regarded as the Gaudí of Kiev. Thats sounds better
• (made out of cement), is that necessary? you mention it in the body so that wont be needed

Please run the article through Tony1's redundancy exercise using the control + f feature when going through. Once these issues are addressed i will promote to GA. M3tal H3ad 03:52, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I have implemented your above suggestions. But what do you mean by References go right after a full-stop, no spaces, only saw this once or twice? Do you mean the sentance Currently, the building serves as an official presidential residence,[3] used for official and diplomatic ceremonies, despite the House with Chimaeras already being officially opened as a cultural museum in 2004.[9] in which I need to move [3] to the end of the sentance? Thanks, —dima/s-ko/ 04:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thats fine. Take this example, There were also four wine cellars on the same level. [14] There is a space between the full-stop and the reference where it should look like, same level.[14] Hope that clears it up M3tal H3ad 04:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I fixed up the references. Thanks for the suggestions, —dima/s-ko/ 04:47, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Only two problems now, There are three one sentence paragraphs and the part about the legends, one legend says, another says, a third says is badly written. Once these issues are addressed i will promote to GA. M3tal H3ad 05:02, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I have finished rephrasing the legends section. —dima/s-ko/ 06:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Note 16 still has a space. The article still has a lot of redundancy

• Finally, on the last floor, last floor? remove 'finally' (this sentence needs to be merged wit a paragraph)
• The best apartment (see plan to the right), which belonged to Gorodetsky, best apartment? remove 'see plan to right'
• One floor above was an apartment similar in size and design to Gorodetsky's apartment., was this apartment removed?
• This image [Image:Interior of House with Chimaeras.jpg] needs fair use rationale
• Make sure to read this M3tal H3ad 06:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think I have fixed all of the above problems. I looked over the redudancy excersize, but do not recognize any more problems with the text... —dima/s-ko/ 20:37, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, only listed for one day (two hours?) and already on hold. I think this meets the GA criteria, but it would be nice for this to be the best GA possible and closer to A quality. I noticed though, that Vladislav Gorodetsky, who was regarded as the Gaudí of Kiev.[2] is stated twice, once in the second sentence of the lead and a second time in the == Architecture == section. This is then followed with a quote making the same comparison. I would recommend omitting this statement the second time and finding something else to say to begin this section, perhaps expanding on this building's art nouveau (or gothic imo) qualities. Best of luck dima, DVD+ R/W 21:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It meets the GA criteria now, thank you for attending to the problems so quickly. M3tal H3ad 00:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your help with making this a Good Article. —dima/s-ko/ 01:19, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Another comment, I am slightly confused by the use of "chimaera" and "chimera", two different spellings with two different meanings. Chimaera is used in the title and also elsewhere, when I am pretty sure Chimera (mythology) or better Chimera_(disambiguation)#In_art_and_architecture is what is intended. Some discussion of gargoyles would also be very useful in explaining these sculptures. DVD+ R/W 21:13, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree, the link to Chimera (mythology) should be used in place of Chimaera]]. I will fix that right now. —dima/s-ko/ 21:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Can we move the page to disambiguate the spelling to House with Chimera? DVD+ R/W 21:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, google gives about 18,100 for House with Chimeras, and about 2,000 for House with Chimaeras so we should probably move it to House with Chimeras. I kind of like Chimaeras as the title (maybe b/c its a more fancy name), but I don't really mind what is the title. If you want, we can move it to House with Chimeras... —dima/s-ko/ 21:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to add bits here as well but trying not to clutter the FAC page - these are to make the article more comprehensive:

• Daniel Balakhovsky - is there any further info? Just a word or two on his occupation and whether he was local (from Kiev) or not.
  • I have added some info on him.
• Kiev Military District - what is this - a district or regiment.
  • I believe a district, although am not sure.
• .. until the end of the 20th century. - better to just put the year here- less unwieldy
  • I don't know, I'd rather leave it as it is.. (no deal-breaker so no problem)
• Any other recent ceremonies it's been used for?
  • Not that I know of.. I will search around to see if there were any ceremonies.. Also, there is an image of the building's original construction located here. Do you think we should place it within the article, or are there already too many images? —dima/talk/ 10:55, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that pic adds much to the article and the images are just the right number (well, would be nice to have a bit more text. My worry is the gallery, though no-one has objected to it thus far.)

Ok, I won't add it then. I think that the gallery gives a bit more idea of the exterior architecture of the building (like the elephant gargoyle, out of which in reality the rainwater flows..) I actually have more images like that that are interesting (a regular drainpipe made to look like a slithering snake - those I will add to the commons. —dima/talk/ 12:28, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any further info on the legends -did his daughter really commit suicide or is that just a story - "slightly mad" is a bit vague - any elaboration? Some details on the firms that went bankrupt etc. in legend no. 3 would be great. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:42, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just checked a magazine (which I already used within the article) and they state that it is just a story that his daughter died - she really lived a happy life. I will add that info. The information that firms that rented the premises went bankrupt was again taken out of the magazine, but they unfortunately do not elaborate more on the topic.. —dima/talk/ 12:28, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are some mess with ownership in sources. Balakhovsky is head of sugar factory «Blahodatinskoe» (profession company) - factory is listed as owner of house after him. Then after factory - Samuil Nimech (Nemech) - but either from November 1916 or 1918. Ownership conflict is based on [1], [2] and even more confusing at [3]. Can somebody take a fresh look ?--TAG 16:45, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I took a look at the pages and added the information, hopefully its less confusing now.. —dima/talk/ 17:39, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The following is not clear. Did Gorodetsky sell it ([4]), or was it actioned by the Credit Association ([5])? Also the article says "The building was built on Gorodetsky's own expenses" referencing to Malakov and Malikenaite books. But here and here we read that Gorodetsky took a credit in the Kiev Mutual Credit Association to build the house. --Novelbank 22:42, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I feel that old.kv.com.ua is more correct. On his own money could mean that he has built it for himself - not by contract for somebody else. But source of money is more clear in old.kv as they refer to papers and numbers. --TAG 01:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Given the references to papers, it seems reasonable for me too. Then the story looks like this. He took a credit in the first place ([6],[7]). He took another credit in 1912([8]), then he was deeply into debt ([9],[10]), then the builiding was auctioned by the Credit Association ([11]).--Novelbank 02:42, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That seems like a more reasonable explanation.. So let's use the old.kv.com.ua site as the source.. —dima/talk/ 08:42, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also we know that Balakhovsky was the head of sugar factory "Blahodatinskoe" (strictly speaking, Ukrainain: голова правлiння, contemporary English: the Chairman of the Board of Directors), i.e. one of the owners of the factory. However, it's not clear, was the building a personal property of Balakhovsky ([12]), a property of the sugar factory ([13]), or initially, a personal property, then a property of the factory ([14])?--Novelbank 02:42, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have a one minor nitpick: the image description is slightly redundant, it currently reads:

• The front façade of the House With Chimaeras, a major Art Nouveau building, in the historic Pechersk neighborhood.

The redundant parts are: 'a major Art Nouveau building, in the historic Pechersk neighborhood.' as these two items have both been mentioned in the lead of the article. To make the image description non-redundant, i think it should read as follows:

• The front façade of the House With Chimaeras

It repeats no information which couldnt be gathered from the lead, and is therefore non-redundant. Thank you. Twenty Years 06:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also on a side note (i may have missed something here), in the image description it spells the word with with a capital W, when in the lead, and at the top of the infobox, it spells it with a lowe-case W, is there any special reason for this? Twenty Years 06:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's expected that everything in the lead is going to crop up again within the article, this doesn't make it redundant. The guidelines for captions state that the captions need to provide context and relevance. I don't see the harm in the current description. Agree about the W though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GeeJo (talk • contribs) 07:04, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry! I hadn't realized the information was not considered redundant. I've deleted my changes.Johnor 09:48, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The capitalized "W" was just a typo I made.. —dima/talk/ 20:50, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In most respects this is a good article, but it is obvious that the main writer was not a native English speaker, as there were several examples of poorly chosen English words. I have tried to fix some of these, but it is hard to do so with confidence when there is room for doubt about a basic fact, ie whether or not this building was originally intended solely for residential use. The writer has done a good job, but if articles can get featured without basic English usage issues being resolved, the FA process is inadequate. Wimstead 10:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The writer claims he/she is "near-native," which I would think is good enough. Brutannica 17:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This moniker is a bit troubling to me for two reasons:

1. The reference for this is not in English. This is undesirable in general; for a very subjective statement like this one, I think it's problematic.
2. Is this something he was called often by many people? If it was a common epithet of his, it should be so noted. If it isn't, and just this (or even a few) critics called him this, stating that he was "regarded as" such is probably OR.

I don't like unilaterally changing content in FAs, but I think this should probably be taken out unless a compelling argument can be presented. It could be replaced with something much more substantive. - Che Nuevara 17:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, according to Citing sources:

Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to other language sources of equal calibre. However, do give references in other languages where appropriate.

So if no English language sources are found, foreign language ones may be used instead. However, after doing a bit of searching, I found an English language newspaper article which states:

... and the beautifully mad Art Nouveau creations of Vladislav Gorodetsky, Ukraine’s Gaudi. His masterpiece is the House with Chimeras, a turn-of-the-century governmental building crowned with fantastical sea beasts.

Perhaps we can add both of them? I will look around for more references to back up the "Gaudí of Kiev" claim.. —dima/talk/ 20:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean that we should use no foreign language sources -- I've used them myself in other articles. I just thought that for a statement like that, such an inaccessible source was problematic because of the nature of the statement.

Good catch on the newspaper article. - Che Nuevara 22:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I will add the reference to the article right now. —dima/talk/ 23:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that mention is made of the ornamentation being constructed of cement. Shouldn't concrete be the correct word? Ozdaren 22:49, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that you are right, we should use concrete instead of cement. However, all references I used for the article ([15], [16], [17]) use the Russian word цемент which translates as cement... —dima/talk/ 23:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I read the Russian cement article and it really comes down to a difference in language use. The difference being in English we make the distinction between concrete the finished product and cement a part of that product. So a literal translation is understandable but not 100%. My Russian is also not 100% (I should have attended all of those Uni lectures), do they have a word similar to concrete, perhaps beton? Ozdaren 01:06, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that concrete should be used, since the article is intended for English speakers.Ceriy 16:53, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why in the notes sections it is used this [[# note-Horodetskyi|Malakov]]? It doesn't link to anywhere. OboeCrack (talk) 14:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This building was used in his “Chimera” address on the state of the Russo-Ukraine war, 1st April, 2022. Worth a mention? 2601:647:5800:3AB0:8150:6399:9F1D:5F12 (talk) 04:21, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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