Talk:Flood myth

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A fact from Flood myth appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 18 April 2004. The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that the Deluge involving Noah or Utnapishtim in the Epic of Gilgamesh is a widespread theme in mythology? A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2004/April.

This article is substantially duplicated by a piece in an external publication. Since the external publication copied Wikipedia rather than the reverse, please do not flag this article as a copyright violation of the following source: F. P. Miller (2010), Mythical origins of language: Origin of language, mythology, oral tradition, deluge myth, creator deity, creation myth, confusion of tongues, Tower of Babel, VDM Publishing House Additional comments OCLC 727116810, ISBN 9786131702686.

^[1]

Is it generally WP-good for this article? According to WP, Anzer Ayoob is a journalist. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:47, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1][2] published by [3] so I'm afraid not. Doug Weller talk 13:50, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@KronosAlight: You're violating WP:PSCI. The Young Drias impact hypothesis never was mainstream science. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:02, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're violating WP:NPOV. One published paper does not equal an objective statement that a scientific hypothesis has been "refuted". KronosAlight (talk) 22:04, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@KronosAlight: The WP:BURDEN is upon you to show that it ever counted as mainstream science. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:06, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's no burden to show that it has ever counted as mainstream science. Continental drift was once considered fringe. I don't know if the Younger Dryas (correcting your spelling) Impact Hypothesis is going to turn out to be true. But one paper claiming to have 'refuted' it does not mean you have permission to violate explicit Wikipedia rules claiming that it therefore has been. There must be a critical consensus demonstrated over time and from numerous sources for such claims to be permissible. Your edit does not meet such a criteria, and therefore I have reverted it in order to enforce the standards. If you have better or more numerous sources, you are welcome to add them and then revert the change. KronosAlight (talk) 22:11, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@KronosAlight: What I am saying is that such hypothesis has never been a hypothesis in good standing. Read the Wikipedia article thereupon, we do not pamper the fact that it never got traction, and it is not our business to venture projections about what might become mainstream science 100 years later, see WP:BALL. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:14, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But you are in fact venturing a very concrete hypothesis about not just its standing but its validity, on the basis of a single paper. In no other circumstance would that be an acceptable view to present on Wikipedia as if it was neutral, when it clearly is not. A neutral view can of course indicate the falsity of a claim or hypothesis or theory - as with Flat Earthers and so on. But it can do so only on the basis of a critical mass of sustained scientific consensus. No such consensus exists yet on this theory, hence the claim that "it has been refuted" is not a neutral claim.

Again, if you'd like to find or cite other papers which demonstrate that this refutation has been a sustained and mainstream position for many years, please do so. "This claim has been considered pseudo-scientific" or something of the like would then be justifiable in reference to clear Wikipedia rules. In lieue of such work being done, it would be best not to mislead readers that there is a clear, settled, and sustained mainstream scientific position on this hypothesis. KronosAlight (talk) 22:24, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@KronosAlight: Claiming that I violate WP:NPOV does not mean that I actually violate WP:NPOV, it is just a statement about what you personally think. YDIH is pseudoscience, or bad science, or WP:FRINGE science. As I said: Wikipedia has an article about it, please read that article. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:27, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You claiming so does not in fact make it so. I'm not interested in your personal opinions about various scientific theories. If you believe it's pseudoscience, demonstrate this through citations of multiple mainstream, high-reputation scientific journals. If you cannot do so, accept that you are violating Wikipedia rules. It is, in fact, binary. KronosAlight (talk) 22:30, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@KronosAlight: The support for YDIH consists of: fallacies, misinterpretations, and fake data. That's why it falls under WP:PSCI, which is part and parcel of WP:NPOV. You're not jury, judge, and executioner over my edits. If you do not like my edits, then file a complaint at WP:AE. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:37, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You have not demonstrated fallacies, misinterpretations or fake data, nor is any one academic paper without any further context, response, or examination able to do so in any context. Spinoza's metaphysics has not been definitively "debunked" just because one bloke published a paper seeking to disprove it, for example.

Until you are able to do so, you're on the wrong side of Wikipedia's rules on NPOV.

I don't have any problem with labelling the theory as pseudoscience if you're actually able to marshall the citations necessary to do so.

If you feel passionately about this, please do find those sustained and high-reputation refutations and add them to the unsubstantiated claim you object to being removed.

This is an important and valuable part of the process on Wikipedia. But until you are able to meet those standards, the page will remain as it is. KronosAlight (talk) 22:42, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@KronosAlight: I'm not a scientist, so I don't have to demonstrate anything. WP:FRINGE POV-pushing falling under WP:PSCI is usually sanctioned at WP:AE and not being willing to read the Wikipedia article about YDIH is not a get me free out of jail card. Because there is explained at length why it is WP:FRINGE science, and there are plenty of citations to that extent. Again: it's considered fringe science in the off-wiki world, so that's what counts at WP:AE. You're not taking my word for it, but arbitrators might simply agree it is fringe science without asking for more WP:RS.

You do use the jargon of an experienced Wikipedian. But if such jargon is not matched by evidence, it will come to bite you in the back. Because you make claims that I would violate WP:NPOV, claims which are not based upon evidence. Instead, you defend a hypothesis which is objectively fringe science, so you are objectively POV-pushing for fringe theories. Pretenses that my view is not well cited are just that: pretenses. That even debunkers of pseudoscience lambast this pseudo-hypothesis in skeptical journals should give you pause. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:33, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If your view is well cited, then add the citations to the article rather than lazily pushing your personal opinions without evidence on Wikipedia.

You simply declaring your opinion 'well cited', and the opinion of an article section 'fringe theory', does not actually make either of those claims true unless you back them up.

So, again: add the citations or stop objecting to an edit which conforms the article to Wikipedia rules of neutrality. KronosAlight (talk) 08:46, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One part of the article reads, "Many scholars believe that this account was copied from the Akkadian Atra-Hasis, which dates to the 18th century BCE."

The article then later reads, "Both the Epic of Gilgamesh and Atra-Hasis are preceded by the similar Eridu Genesis (c. 1600 BCE)—the oldest surviving example of such a flood-myth narrative, …"

Can someone explain to me how 1600 BCE "precedes" the "18th century BCE"? I thought 1800 BCE came before 1600 BCE. Ndd92 (talk) 12:35, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]