Talk:Durrës Expedition

Durrës Expedition has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. Review: July 9, 2024. (Reviewed version).

This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Military history: Balkan / European / Medieval This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles Associated task forces: /  Balkan military history task force (c. 500–present) European military history task force Medieval warfare task force (c. 500 – c. 1500) Albania High‑importance Durrës Expedition is part of the WikiProject Albania, an attempt to co-ordinate articles relating to Albania on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.AlbaniaWikipedia:WikiProject AlbaniaTemplate:WikiProject AlbaniaAlbania articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Middle Ages Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

A fact from Durrës Expedition appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 29 August 2024 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that the Durrës Expedition in 1376 saw Louis of Évreux successfully recapture Durrës from Karl Thopia, only for Thopia to reclaim the city in 1383? A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2024/August. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Durrës Expedition.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Durrës Expedition/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Arberian2444 (talk · contribs) 22:46, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator: Arberian2444 (talk · contribs) 22:46, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Fritzmann2002 (talk · contribs) 17:51, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arberian2444, I'll be taking this review and should have it completed by the end of the day! Fritzmann (message me) 17:51, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok thank you so much! Arberian2444 (talk) 18:14, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! When first making this article I wasn't sure if it should be labeled a battle, campaign or siege so do you think that it would be more appropriate to call it campaign or siege of Durazzo?Arberian2444 (talk) 19:03, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is it called in the secondary sources you use? Fritzmann (message me) 20:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They mostly discuss how Louis is trying to gain back the territory and pressing his claims like here- "These Navarrese were mercenaries who had been in the service of Charles of Navarre and had been sent to Greece to press the claims of his brother, Louis of Evreux, to the Kingdom of Albania" Arberian2444 (talk) 21:11, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In another it discusses it as a expedition in some- "Louis was preparing an expedition to conquer the Kingdom of Albania" and "Extensive preparations were made for the expedition, and almost a score of names of military contractors have come down to us in the enrolment lists of 1375-1376. Of the details of Louis's Albanian expedition little is known." Arberian2444 (talk) 21:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

General Prose

• "and the Navarrese Company"?

- Changed to "and the Navarrese Company, which was under the command of Louis of Évreux"

• The second sentence of the lead is an incomplete sentence.

- Changed to "Louis of Évreux had hired the Navarrese Company to support him in reclaiming his newly acquired rights over Durazzo and the Kingdom of Albania, inherited through his marriage to Joanna, Duchess of Durazzo."

• The first sentence of Background is difficult to parse, and would be well-served if it were rewritten.

- Changed to "Joanna, Duchess of Durazzo, inherited the rights to the Kingdom of Albania upon her father Charles, Duke of Durazzo's death, and subsequently ruled as a duchess."

• Is Durrës equivalent to Durazzo? It is used interchangeably in the article, but without that explanation. Whichever usage is most common in English should be used consistently.

- Yes they are different ways to say the name of the city but Durrës is the native name so I will be using that.

• The sentence beginning "Durrës held the last of the Angevins..." needs to be copyedited.

- Changed to "Durrës was the last stronghold of the Angevins, who maintained control over the kingdom until Karl Thopia conquered the city, leading to the disestablishment of the Kingdom of Albania."

• "...but these documents have been lost to obscurity" which documents? I'm rather confused by the introduction of this clause at the end of the paragraph.

- Changed to "After this event, Louis made various attempts to expel the intruders from Durrës and Albania as a whole. However, detailed records of these attempts have been lost over time, leaving little documentation of his efforts."

• "....and reestablish it began" this sentence cuts off abruptly. Should it say "began in x"?

- Changed to "The final effort by Louis of Évreux to assert his claim to the Kingdom of Albania and restore its rule began in the early 1370s."

• "In 1372 he planned to expel" Did he plan to expel or did he actually attempt to expel?

- Deleted this sentence

• The "at once" at the end of the second sentence is not necessary.

- Deleted this sentence

• Sentences should not begin with but like the one "but little..."

- Changed to "However, scant information is available regarding the Albanian expedition overall."

• Sometimes it is called the Navarre Company instead of the Navarrese Company, this should be standardized.

- I removed Navarre Company and it only states the Navarrese Company

• The piece beginning "the four leaders..." is a grammatical mess.

- Changed to "The Navarrese Company was led by four individuals: Pedro de la Saga and Mahiot de Coquerel, both chamberlains of the Navarrese king; John de Urtubia; and Garro (or Guarro), who is documented as a squire."

• The final sentence of this paragraph is not a sentence.

- Changed to "The battle began in the midsummer of 1376, and Louis and the Navarrese Company were successful in occupying Durrës, which officially reestablished the Kingdom of Albania."

• The first sentence of Aftermath is not a sentence.

- Fixed to "After Louis of Évreux and the Navarrese Company succeeded in gaining back Durrës and reestablishing the Kingdom of Albania, Louis of Évreux died shortly after in the same year."

• The final sentence of Aftermath is not a sentence.

- Fixed to "Durrës remained under the control of Joanna, Duchess of Durazzo, and her second husband Robert IV of Artois, for a few years until Karl Thopia invaded in 1383, leading to the final disestablishment of the Kingdom of Albania."

• The Aftermath section could use general copyediting for brevity and flow.

- Changed it to help the brevity and flow

Content

• The lead of the article does not adequately summarize all parts of the article.

- Added onto it with "Following their successful occupation of Durrës, the Navarrese Company faced challenges after Louis's death, eventually relocating to Morea under new leadership. Meanwhile, Durrës remained contested until Karl Thopia's invasion in 1383, which led to the final disestablishment of the Kingdom of Albania."

• What is the difference between the Kingdom of Albania and the Principality of Albania?

- The Kingdom of Albania was ruled by the Angevins while the Principality of Albania was ruled by the Albanian Thopia family.

• "The great final effort by Louis of Évreux to regain his right to rule" This does not pass Neutrality. I take the most umbrage with "great", but also the "right to rule" part does not seem historically impartial.

- Changed it to "The final effort by Louis of Évreux to assert his claim to the Kingdom of Albania and restore its rule began in the early 1370s."

• "In 1372 he planned to expel" Did he plan to expel or did he actually attempt to expel?

- Deleted Sentence

• The sentence beginning "More soldiers were recruited..." is very obtuse and vague. From where were they recruited? What are the beginning and ending numbers of the Company? What does it mean that the "chief contingents" were "engaged"?

- Changed to "Additional soldiers were recruited into the ranks of the Navarrese Company, primarily bolstering their numbers by 1375–1376, most of whom hailed from Navarre." And removed Chief contingents from sentence.

• Is there an explanation for the time gap between planning in 1372 (which was apparently for an expulsion "at once") and the battle in 1376?

- Removed that sentence

• What kind of assistance was offered by the kings of Navarre and France? Were the Navarrese Companies the assistance, or was it monetary, or something else?

- I found a source that states that France gave Louis 50,000 ducats and his brother helped him militarily by helping him acquire the kingdom

• What and when is the midsummer?

- The Midsummer would by around Late June to early July

• For an article about a battle, I am surprised to find that there is no content about the battle itself.

- Yes that is why I want to change the title to either the Expedition of Durrës

Referencing

• I have extreme close paraphrasing and plagiarism concerns. These are present throughout the article. I have listed several below, but combined with prose and content concerns these mean the article will probably have to be entirely rewritten to comply with originality standards.

• Compare: "chief contingents and most important leaders were engaged in 1375 and 1376" from Ref 11 to the text "chief contingents and the most important leaders were engaged by 1375–1376"

- Removed that Sentence

• Also: "hired four companies of knights from Navarre, who are usually referred to as the Navarrese Company" from Ref 10 to the text "hired four companies of knights from Navarre who are referred to as the Navarrese Company"

- Changed to "Louis enlisted four companies of knights from Navarre, known as the Navarrese Company, to support his claim and captured Durrës by 1376."

• Also: "Louis received much assistance from his brother" from Ref 12 to the text "Louis received much assistance from his brother"

- Changed to "Louis garnered substantial support from his brother Charles II of Navarre who was the King of Navarre and from Charles V of France who was the King of France."

• Also: "lost in obscurity" from Ref 9 to the text "lost to obscurity"

- Changed to "However, detailed records of these attempts have been lost over time, leaving little documentation of his efforts."

• I have removed the See Also section, as every link therein was present in the article.
• There are several instances of egregious over-referencing with upwards of five citations for a brief statement.

- I could remove some from those said statements

• I have not performed source-integrity spot checks.

Summary This article requires major work to achieve Good Article status. It needs to be comprehensively rewritten to avoid plagiarism and close paraphrasing, as well as meet the quality of writing that is required for GA. I am also dubious of the broadness of the article, as there is no mention of the Battle of Durazzo in an article on the Battle of Durazzo. I will place the review on hold to allow the author time to respond, and am happy to help if they desire assistance in rewriting anything or in moving this article towards a GA pass. Fritzmann (message me) 18:23, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arberian2444, have you made any progress with the GAN? Is there anything I can help you with? Fritzmann (message me) 18:29, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! Ive been trying to fix some stuff slowly if that's alright. Ive been doing the edits on a google doc so that's why. Arberian2444 (talk) 03:53, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But Ill definitly be contacting you sometime this week for some help or if I did well so far! Arberian2444 (talk) 04:19, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fritzmann2002, Hello! Ive followed all the recommendations you gave me so if you could take a look I would appreciate it! I also had two questions about renaming the article. Durrës is the most common way of saying the city name since thats the native name of the city so Im not sure if I should just call it the Battle of Durrës and change the title to that. Also the other half the title should I rename it to the Campaign of Durrës? Because louis was fighting for his right for the city and kingdom. Like in these three sources it says "These Navarrese were mercenaries who had been in the service of Charles of Navarre and had been sent to Greece to press the claims of his brother, Louis of Evreux, to the Kingdom of Albania" and "Louis was preparing an expedition to conquer the Kingdom of Albania" and "Extensive preparations were made for the expedition, and almost a score of names of military contractors have come down to us in the enrolment lists of 1375-1376. Of the details of Louis's Albanian expedition little is known." Thank you again! Arberian2444 (talk) 18:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Arberian2444 , can you please respond individually to each of the bullet points above with the changes you've made? I do think that the title should be changed, but neither source you quoted uses "campaign", but "expedition". Based on that, I would recommend something like Durrës Expedition or Albanian Expedition; however, I don't have access to your sources so I can't argue for those with full confidence. Fritzmann (message me) 20:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fritzmann2002 Do I copy and paste the bulletins and then respond or just add it on the right side of the bulletins you already made? Also does the "Expedition of Durrës" sound good? As for my sources they should all be clickable at the bottom of the page I left links for! Thanks again Arberian2444 (talk) 20:44, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Arberian2444, respond by making a new line after each bullet poing above. Let's table the title for now and focus on the article; once it is in good shape I'd recommend leaving a message at a history wikiproject asking for input on the title. Fritzmann (message me) 21:22, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Fritzmann2002 Ok! I have finished responding to each point you made. Thank you again! Arberian2444 (talk) 21:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Final Sweep I have rewritten the lead and done copyediting for clarity and conciseness for the body of the article. Parts of the Battle (Expedition) section seemed to be out of order, so I have switched up a few sentences. Per your suggestion, I also moved it to Durres Expedition which seems much more fitting. In the last round, I looked for close paraphrasing and I think we have gotten most of it; a second sweep shows the article is much improved after your edits. The extensive quotes in the notes section allowed easy verification of source-text integrity, and I am eschewing spot checks for the few non-quoted sources on good faith. At this point, I have just two concerns:

• The infobox image should have ALT text, and its caption does not seem accurate. That looks like a model of Durres, vice a picture of it from the 1300s. Is there any information on this image? Its commons page is dubiously lacking in details; at the very least, a year that the model represents would be helpful. Are there any other images in Commons that would serve this purpose, and are there any others that might warrant inclusion in the article?
• There is a bit of over-referencing in the article. A good rule of thumb is that a statement should have no more than three references, unless it is incredibly controversial or complicated. I will leave it to you to trim down the claims with four or five references, which is just a few too many.

One those two things are taken care of, I will give the article one last read of the article, and hopefully all will be good and I can promote! My apologies for the radio silence over the last few days, I have been travelling over the 4th of July holiday weekend. Fritzmann (message me) 01:04, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Fritzmann2002 I will take care of those two issues by tonight! Also should the title include the year 1376 on it or does it sound good to how you changed it? Thanks again! Arberian2444 (talk) 02:20, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since there are no other Durres Expeditions, the title shouldn't need need the year disambiguator. I've left a link in the hat to the disambiguation page for Battle of Durazzo, just to allay any confusion. Fritzmann (message me) 02:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok! so for the first concern it says that the model was made during the communist period depicting the castle during the middle ages "The citadel of Durres (today is known as the neighborhood “Kala”). Photo taken from a documentary of Communist period." [1]. If that doesnt suffice then I could just include a modern day image of the durres castle like the venetian tower. Arberian2444 (talk) 02:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Fritzmann2002 I have dealed with the over-referencing and responded to your first point above! Thanks again Arberian2444 (talk) 02:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arberian2444, looks good! I have promoted the article to GA as it now meets all of the criteria. Thank you for your willingness to work together and congratulations! Fritzmann (message me) 14:28, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much! Have a great day!Arberian2444 (talk) 16:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Fritzmann2002 I had one last question what does this mean to promote it to did you know? "Well done! If the article is eligible to appear in the "Did you know" section of the Main Page, you can nominate it within the next seven days" What is this for exactly and do you recommend me doing this? Arberian2444 (talk) 16:13, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah for sure, DYK is pretty cool - just follow the instructions at WP:DYK and if you create the nomination and have questions drop me a message on my talk page and I'll swing by! Fritzmann (message me) 02:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok thank you again! Arberian2444 (talk) 03:10, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]