Talk:Daimyo

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) —Nnadigoodluck🇳🇬 09:06, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Daimyō → Daimyo – In 2008, User @Fg2 correctly noted that "Daimyo" (without the macron) is an accepted English term and moved this article from Daimyō to Daimyo. In 2016, with no explanation, user @Gryffindor moved it back. "Daimyo" (no macron, no italics) is the correct title for this article, just as Tokyo does not take macrons. See: the manual of style for Japanese terms, which specifically says that accepted English terms should be spelled as in English, even if this differs from Japanese: [1] For dictionary references, see: [2], [3], etc. In addition, only transliterated terms should be italicized. "Daimyo" is not transliterated; it is an accepted English term. Bueller 007 (talk) 21:17, 7 February 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Jerm (talk) 16:42, 15 February 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 21:44, 22 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: Claims that this or that is an "English word" need very clear evidence. Of course Daimyo, written with or without a macron, will appear in lots of writing in English, but this does not make it an "English word", any more than "tagliatelle", "Tokyo", or "tovarich" are actually "English words". Writing with the macron is no obstacle to ignorant readers, who can ignore it, so you simply want to reduce the amount of information Wikipedia provides, which I think is a bad idea. Imaginatorium (talk) 03:34, 8 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's really quite a feat to not be able to make it through such a short paragraph as the one I wrote. The Japanese manual of style, which I linked above, specifically says that English words of Japanese origin (like "daimyo") should be spelled as accepted in English. And then I provided English dictionary references that show it without the macron."Follow the usage of academic texts or a widely used reference such as a published encyclopedia in matters of spelling, macron usage, and name order." (Emphasis mine.) It also Here's Britannica: [4] Again, no macron. But your argument completely flies in the face of the manual of style and all English dictionaries and encyclopedias, so that's cool. P.S., "tagliatelle" is an English word of Italian origin, just as "daimyo" is an English word of Japanese origin. Your example, like your argument, is nonsense. Bueller 007 (talk) 02:48, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - just make the version without the macron a redirect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.184.193.250 (talk) 15:33, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - The relevant policy here is WP: COMMONNAME. Bueller 007 is completely right. All other encyclopedias and dictionaries drop the macron, and there's no reason to make Wikipedia the big exception to the rule. I agree also that daimyo should not be italicized, since it's a word used very often in English language articles and books without italicization. Patiodweller (talk) 13:39, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support: Nevermind dictionaries, even specialized sources on Japanese history leave out the macron. Check the authoritative Cambridge History of Japan. Like has already been said, "no macron, no italics". The oppose voters need to explain why Wikipedia shouldn't have the same standards as the Cambridge History of Japan. Tikisim (talk) 03:19, 11 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. Every style guide I am familiar with recommends following the spelling given in a widely available dictionary. See Merriam-Webster, American Heritage, and Oxford. To clarify a point raised above, the Japanese themselves rarely use macrons, as you can see here. Macrons come from a transliteration system called modified Hepburn. Colin Gerhard (talk) 08:44, 11 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support What Bueller 007 said.Polyglot Researcher (talk) 08:49, 11 February 2020 (UTC) — Polyglot Researcher (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
• Support - For reasons mentioned by proposer. --Veikk0.ma 21:13, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose completely wrong reasoning in proposal and support votes. We have the capability here to show the difference between long vowels and short vowels and citing crap sources which don't doesn't change Wikipedia which does. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:03, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. The common name in English appears to be the one without a macron. The one with it is more Japanese. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 17:15, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per nom and abundant sources. Note re Bueller 007, "Tokyo" is indeed an English word; the strict Modified Hepburn romanization of the Japanese name of the city is Tōkyō, but not used due to being just Tokyo in English. SnowFire (talk) 15:46, 17 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.