Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Battle of Lake Providence/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 2 October 2024 [1].

---

Nominator(s): Hog Farm _Talk 03:44, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have a long-term goal to get all of the articles related to the Vicksburg campaign to featured article status, in the manner of Wikipedia:Featured topics/Guadalcanal Campaign. Hopefully this will become the fourth FA of the direct project, after Battle of Grand Gulf, Battle of Raymond, and Battle of Helena, with Grant's Canal and Duckport Canal as supporting FAs. This isn't the meatiest article of the group, but I believe it is as comprehensive as can be. This winter, when I have more time on my hands, I hope to tackle some of the bigger ones. Hog Farm _Talk 03:44, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

• Suggest adding alt text. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:26, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have attempted to add alt text, and have also added File:Map of Plantations in Carroll Parish, Louisiana and Issaquena County, Mississippi (cropped).jpg. I think the licensing is pretty airtight on the new addition. Hog Farm _Talk 16:03, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the read. The comments below are part clarificatory questions, rather than being a point by point list of needed actions.

• Is there a pattern behind the name abbreviations of Hugh T. Reid, Paul O. Hébert, and E. Kirby Smith? Just convention among historians?
  • This is how the individuals are named in the sources Hog Farm _Talk 21:42, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Bartlett's force crossed Bayou Macon two days late" does not come with context as to what the expected time was. Coordination with the other prongs? Same in the body.
  • This is addressed in the body - "Major General John George Walker's troops reached Richmond on June 6, and Taylor planned a three-pronged strike for the next day: Confederate troops were to attack Milliken's Bend, Young's Point, and Lake Providence". I've added to the lead a statement that the attacks were scheduled to take place on June 7. Hog Farm _Talk 21:42, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "The Confederate were forced to halt" in the lead doesn't seem to align with "Bartlett halted his cavalry at the bridge in order to allow the infantry to catch up" in the body, with the latter implying it was a choice rather than something forced.
  • Rephrased. Hog Farm _Talk 21:42, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Without going into a huge amount of detail, could Background provide a bit more context as to the situation in Louisiana at this time? The Union forces are described as attacking Vicksburg from Louisiana, which is to the west, and Confederate forces also come from the west, including apparently taking over Richmond.
  • @Chipmunkdavis: - I've added several sentences for greater context of the operations - is that an improvement? Hog Farm _Talk 23:24, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yes, that's helpful geographical context. CMD (talk) 01:22, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• What sort of place is "Caledonia"? The article seems to append ", STATE" to towns and cities, which made me curious what Caledonia was, and I was unable to find it in a quick search (outside of this unhelpful mention in civil war coverage).
  • After quite a bit of searching, I turned up this which calls it a "post-hamlet" as of 1902, but there's no way of knowing if this was a post-hamlet in 1863. The only detail I can find about Caledonia in the various sources related to this battle are references that it had a brick kiln and "Negro quarters". I've delinked it, as there's essentially no chance that an article on this place could be developed. Hog Farm _Talk 21:42, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• The map in "Battle" is not too helpful, but perhaps better than nothing. The caption could use some expansion, "Walker's operations in support of Vicksburg" makes me assume it would show Milliken's Bend and Young's Point, which are described as the three operational prongs, but instead it shows Richmond (and Vicksburg of course).
  • Would File:Map of Plantations in Carroll Parish, Louisiana and Issaquena County, Mississippi (cropped).jpg be better? It shows Bunch's Bend, Bayou Baxter, and Bayou Tensas, along with Lake Providence. I can't find a period map of the western portion of Carroll Parish showing Floyd and Caledonia (which is surprising to me because Floyd was the county seat at the time) and the first USGS topographic map of the Floyd area I can find is from the 1950s. Hog Farm _Talk 21:13, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • It would be a helpful addition, if only for confirming the location of a couple of places I was guessing on google maps. CMD (talk) 01:18, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Chipmunkdavis: - this has been added now, although I'm not entirely happy with how it breaks over into the section heading below. Hog Farm _Talk 16:03, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    • It doesn't break over when I look in Vector2022. To make sure, why not move the Louisiana map to background where Richmond is mentioned? CMD (talk) 19:14, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    • On my screen, that would cause MOS:SANDWICH issues with the infobox and campaign navbox. Hog Farm _Talk 19:45, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      • Hmm, I wonder why. I see the campaign navbox ending within the first paragraph of Background, or I wouldn't have suggested it. CMD (talk) 07:33, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• What was the "Union outpost at Bunch's Bend", just a few troops smaller than a picket?
  • Winters has "Bartlett crossed Bayou Macon and moved over to Bunch's Bend on the Mississippi, capturing the Federal outpost at that point". Bearss does not mention this, nor does Reid or the NPS source. Hog Farm _Talk 21:42, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "The Confederates reached the wrecked bridge", does this mean the infantry, given Bartlett was already there?
  • I have heavily rewritten this sentence. Hog Farm _Talk 21:42, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Would it be possible to explicitly mention the shooting engagement was across the Bayou Tensas?
  • Done. Hog Farm _Talk 21:42, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Best, CMD (talk) 08:39, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Are "The Confederate did..." and "The Confederate finally crossed..." structures correct?
  • No, those are not correct. I have made corrections. Hog Farm _Talk 00:12, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aside from that, on a fresh reread, I think the article meets the FACR. It certainly more comprehensive than Grabau 2000. Best, CMD (talk) 12:39, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I'll have a closer look soon. FunkMonk (talk) 19:33, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Period map showing" Add the exact year instead? Commons say 1860.
  • I've corrected that - there's no date on the map, and the LOC page this came from has [1860?] Hog Farm _Talk 02:51, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Nowhere is Vicksburg, Mississippi itself linked in the article.
  • Oops - linked in the lead and body now. Hog Farm _Talk 02:51, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Vicksburg, Richmond, and Lake Providence" Link places mentioned in caption?
  • All linked now. Hog Farm _Talk 02:51, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Link Milliken's Bend, Louisiana in intro and article body?
  • Linked. The Milliken's Bend article didn't exist until recently. Hog Farm _Talk 21:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Grant still kept minor supply points at there, Young's Point, and Lake Providence in Louisiana" The placement of "at" seems a bit off, perhaps before Young's Point would be better?
  • This was a suggestion by Zawed in their review. The "there" here is referring to Milliken's Bend. I don't know that there's a way to get around the awkward phrasing here without the frequent use of Milliken's Bend in this section. Hog Farm _Talk 21:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Actually, the presence of the "at" in my suggested change was a typo on my part. It isn't meant to be there and I have removed it. Sorry HF, that was my bad. Zawed (talk) 08:31, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "take some of the pressure off of Vicksburg" is the "of" needed?
  • Remove the second "of" Hog Farm _Talk 21:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Link Slave rebellion?
  • Done Hog Farm _Talk 21:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Link bayou?
  • Done Hog Farm _Talk 21:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Anything to link Caledonia to?
  • Not that I'm aware of. All I've been able to find about this was that it was a "post-hamlet" in 1902 and that it had a brick kiln and "negro quarters" in 1863. Hog Farm _Talk 21:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - looks good, not much to nitpick anyway. FunkMonk (talk) 23:45, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Background

• ...but by the time of the siege, Grant had...: perhaps "he had" since Grant is already named earlier in the sentence?
  • done Hog Farm _Talk 18:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Milikin's Bend is named a few times in close succession. Perhaps rephrase, e.g. "During the early part of the campaign, Grant had operated a supply depot at Milliken's Bend in Louisiana,[3] but this decreased in importance due to his establishment of a different supply line. Grant still kept minor supply points at there, and at Young's Point and... "
  • Done Hog Farm _Talk 18:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• link infantry division to [Division (military)]?
  • Linked Hog Farm _Talk 18:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Taylor's reinforced command was...: how was it reinforced?
  • That would be Walker - I've rephrased this to be clearer. Hog Farm _Talk 18:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Confederates viewed the training of USCT at Lake Providence...: to avoid repetition, suggest "Confederates viewed the training of USCT at there..."
• I've gone with the broader and more accurate "Confederates viewed the training of USCT to be the fomenting of a slave rebellion" Hog Farm _Talk 18:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• The Major General link on Walker should be moved to first mention of Taylor, since that usage is the first time the CSA rank is used.
  • Done Hog Farm _Talk 18:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• link Brigadier General
  • Done Hog Farm _Talk 18:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Battle

• Link Caledonia, even if it is a redlink?
  • I really don't think Caledonia is a possible future article topic (see some notes in a review above about attempted research into the nature of Caledonia), so I don't think this would meet WP:REDYES. Hog Farm _Talk 18:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• The Union unit fired several volleys into the Confederates...: for greater specificity suggest "the Confederate rearguard"
  • Done Hog Farm _Talk 18:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• did not attempt to cross Bayou Tensas at any points downstream: seems to me that "at any points" is redundant?
  • Removed Hog Farm _Talk 18:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's about it for me. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 08:33, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Zawed: - Thanks for the review! Replies are above. Hog Farm _Talk 18:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good so have added my support. Zawed (talk) 22:31, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pulling up a chair...

• Probably worth spelling out "six" in the convert template for "six miles".
  • done Hog Farm _Talk 20:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Taylor preferred a strike against New Orleans, Louisiana, and" do we really need to specify in what state New Orleans is?
  • I think so. From an American perspective this is well-known, but I don't know that New Orleans is well-known as being in Louisiana elsewhere). Maybe Gog the Mild has thoughts from a British perspective on this? Hog Farm _Talk 20:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just for myself, I would think that if a reader has no clue as to where New Orleans is, adding "Louisiana" is (highly) unlikely to help them, so you should feel free to skip it. Others may disagree. @Sammi Brie: for info. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:11, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "Confederate cavalry occupied Richmond, Louisiana, on June 3, Major General John George Walker's troops reached Richmond on June 6, and Taylor planned a three-pronged strike for the next day" The complexity of this sentence and the GEOCOMMA demand semicolons between list items.
  • Done Hog Farm _Talk 20:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "The regiment had no prior combat experience, and had been dismounted in early 1863." Classic CINS remove comma
  • Removed. Hog Farm _Talk 20:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Bartlett struck a Union outpost at Bunch's Bend on the Mississippi River, and then continued" another CINS
  • Done Hog Farm _Talk 20:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Outnumbered, the Kansans withdrew and a messenger informed Brigadier General Hugh T. Reid, the Union commander at Lake Providence, of the Confederate advance." add comma after "withdrew"
  • Added Hog Farm _Talk 20:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Link "lodgment"
  • Done. I was not aware that this was a technical term. Hog Farm _Talk 20:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Bartlett believed that Reid had more men than he actually had, and did" remove comma
  • Removed Hog Farm _Talk 20:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "the Confederates lost two men killed and five wounded" is this "lost two men killed" phrasing typical in military history?
  • Yes. Hog Farm _Talk 20:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Confederate troops captured a small Union camp in the area in the Battle of Goodrich's Landing on June 29, but were driven off the next day." remove comma
  • Removed Hog Farm _Talk 20:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mostly comma fixes and one or two copy flow items. Ping when done. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 04:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sammi Brie: - Thanks for your review! I'm not very good with comma usage - I blame the Missouri Department of Elementary and Secondary Education somewhat. Hog Farm _Talk 20:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. Not going to quibble on the New Orleans location item — it's just a question, less a thing needing fixing. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 04:38, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Will leave comments. 750h+ 10:53, 21 September 2024 (UTC) Feel free to refuse the suggestions with justification.[reply]

lead

• Taylor, primarily utilizing Walker's ==> "Taylor, primarily using Walker's": i learnt this from SC: per an essay by Orwell, it's worse to use a long word where a short one would do
  • Done Hog Farm _Talk 21:32, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• and Lake Providence which was scheduled i'd add a comma before "which" (but this is personal preference)
  • Added Hog Farm _Talk 21:32, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

background

• No problems here. 750h+ 11:05, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

battle

• at the bridge in order to allow ==> "at the bridge to allow"
  • Done Hog Farm _Talk 21:32, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• of an oxbow lake also known as Lake Providence. add a comma after after the first "lake"
  • Done Hog Farm _Talk 21:32, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

aftermath

• the field by a different ==> "the field in a different"
  • I prefer this as it is. At least in my mind, "by a different way" would generally be referring to a different route back, while "in a different way" could more naturally refer to getting back by a different method. Hog Farm _Talk 21:32, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's all i got. fine work. 750h+ 11:05, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@750h+: - Thanks for the review! My replies are above. Hog Farm _Talk 21:32, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to support. 750h+ 00:19, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shelby Foote seems to be a somewhat questionable source; was this accounted for when the article was written? John D. Winters raises similar doubts but to a lesser degree. "The Civil War Battlefield Guide" is being cited in two different formats. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:02, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: - as to the Battlefield Guide matter, are you talking about Bearss 1998 and Winschel 1998 vs Kennedy 1998, this is due to a peculiarity of this work. The more important battles receive longer writeups from established and recognized historians like Bearss and Winschel, while the smaller battles have no byline and I guess were written by Kennedy? The smaller ones sometimes are pretty similar to the Civil War Sites Advisory Commission battle summaries. I agree that Foote should probably go; his work is still respected as probably the single best piece of pure writing about the war, but is non-scholarly and is getting dated. I'm aware from my books right now, but once I get back I'll find replacements for the two citations to Foote. I will defend the usage of Winters, though. Winters is very heavily cited, even and is still being cited in post-2019 works. The main factual problem that I'm aware of is that his estimate of free blacks that served in the Confederacy is rejected by modern scholarship, but that error does not have any bearing on the topic at hand. Winters' views on certain subjects are not politically correct, but I've intentionally avoided using Winters for anything directly involving the USCT. As much as Winters is cited in the late 20th and 21st century literature on the war in Louisiana, I'm worried that it would be a WP:FACR #1c issue to not use Winters. Hog Farm _Talk 02:11, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. I think, but am not positive, that INTEXT attribution should be used or perhaps additional sources to corroborate Winters' claims if they are both questionable and yet necessary for completeness. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:01, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm unaware of anyone who has questioned Winters' combat descriptions. I think this is more of a circumstance where Winters is only FA-usable for certain classes of statements, and the material Winters is cited for falls into those classifications. Hog Farm _Talk 03:18, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jo-Jo Eumerus - both citations to Shelby Foote have been replaced - one by a citation to Miller, and another to a book written by Timothy B. Smith (one of the leading experts on the campaign) and published by the University of Kansas. Hog Farm _Talk 22:29, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems OK then. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Hog Farm, my comments:

• "minor supply points there, Young's Point, ...": prefix "Young's Point" with "and also at" so the grammar is better?
  • Have gone with "Grant still kept minor supply points there and also at Young's Point and Lake Providence". Hog Farm _Talk 22:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "The withdrawal crossed Bayou Tensas, where the Union forces destroyed the bridge over the bayou": Would "The withdrawing Union forces crossed Bayou Tensas, where they destroyed the bridge over it" be better?
  • How about "The withdrawing Union forces crossed Bayou Tensas and destroyed the bridge over it", which is even more concise? Hog Farm _Talk 22:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Consider running the InternetArchive Bot through the page once, so that archive URLs for refs #18, #24 and #32 will be automatically added?
  • Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates#Google Books web archive links and IABot contains some statements that indicate this is a controversial practice, so I would prefer not to. Hog Farm _Talk 22:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Well @Hog Farm you may have to add the archive URLs manually then. Matarisvan (talk) 09:30, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @Matarisvan: - While I will note that archiving live URLs is not something necessary for FAs, after thinking about this further, I've gone ahead and run the bot. The NPS frequently changes up its website, so it's probably best to be proactive here as it's sometimes hard to find where the NPS moves stuff. Hog Farm _Talk 22:08, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Adding my support then. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 09:09, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Consider linking to UTenn Press and LSU Press as done for other publishers?
  • I've linked all of the publishers in the citations except for the Morningside Bookshop, which doesn't have an article. Hog Farm _Talk 22:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's all from me. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 08:17, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Matarisvan: - Thanks for the review! My replies are above. Hog Farm _Talk 22:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:20, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.