Talk:Susan Boyle

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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

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This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Jose Antonio Vargas (April 19, 2009). "Scottish Singer's Audition Video Sets Online Record". The Washington Post. Natalie Clarke (April 19, 2009). "'They called me Susie Simple', but singing superstar Susan Boyle is the one laughing now". The Daily Mail. Staff (April 21, 2009). "Jay Leno performs in drag as Susan Boyle". The Daily Telegraph. Meghan Foley (April 21, 2009). "A Wiki-tribute from Williams". The Berkshire Eagle.

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A fact from Susan Boyle appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 22 April 2009 (check views). A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2009/April.

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'The Gift' did not top the UK & USA Album Charts at the same time. It is a Myth. It was No.1 in the UK on W/E 20th November, & W/E 27th November in the USA - by which time it was no longer No.1 in the UK.

Even if she had achieved it, she would not be the 3rd Act, to do so. Led Zeppelin had 2 UK/USA simulatanous No.1 Albums in 1970. Elton John did so in 1973 - and again in 1974. The Beatles did not only achieve in 1969. They also did so in 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, & 1968. If we go by '12 Months apart', they also achieved it in 1970 - less than a 12 Month gap between their final No.1 of 1969, & the 'Let It Be' Album in 1970.

But, rather than do any checking, the Global Media lapped up a Sony Press Release that wasn't even true. Then Wikipedia repeats it as fact, also.

One can see where Wikipedia gets its reputation for 'accuracy' from! (LOL!). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.22.122.117 (talk) 22:22, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is no such thing as 'Scottish Citizenship' or a nationality of Scotland, as Scotland is not a sovereign nation, it is a constituent country of the United Kingdom. As such, surely she should be referred to as British? TheStig 13:52, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See the Wikipedia essay on this complex matter. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:03, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've read that and to quote it, Under British law, these four countries are an equal union, sharing a common British nationality (see British nationality law). The term "Britain" means "the United Kingdom". A UK passport describes its holder as a "British citizen". Susan Boyle is a citizen of the UK, therefore a British citizen. As I said previously, Scottish nationality does not exist, as Scotland is not a nation, it is a constituent country. ...the opening paragraph of a biographical article should state the person's "nationality". As such, I feel there is a very legitimate reason to change to 'British'. TheStig 09:31, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Read the essay again. What is most important is how Boyle identifies herself. What is next important is how other people generally identify her. What the legal nationalities and countries are and aren't is of least importance. This article is about Susan Boyle, not about British citizenship. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 22:03, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If she didn't identify herself as British, she would have gone on Scotland's Got Talent. TheStig 11:31, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well that's the stupidest argument I've ever heard. British people have gone on American Idol. It doesn't make them American. anemoneprojectors talk 13:01, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We're not looking for what 'makes' them a certain nationality like EscapeOrbit says. If we were, we'd look at one's passport, thus it would be British hands down. As Escape said, we're looking for how she identifies herself. Unless there are reliable sources that suggest she considers herself to be Scottish rather than British, by default, she is British - as her citizen credentials are the only source we have to go by. Nevertheless I admit, the Britain's got talent remark was a rather poor one but far from the stupidest ever. TheStig 20:15, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What's this British/Scottish thing? I'm a British citizen and a Scottish national. The two aren't mutually exclusive and it's very much a matter of context whether I identify myself as one or the other. I'm sure the same is true of Miss Boyle. Her Passport will identify her as British but her Birth Certificate will identify her as Scottish. -- Derek Ross | Talk 21:59, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What makes British the default? Right now the only default information we have is where she was born, and who her parents were. No one can cite what it says on her passport. All we can safely assume is that she is Scottish from the information we have, and "Scottish" offers greater detail to the reader than "British". The essay I linked to specifically suggests that there is no uniformity, no default. Really, unless we have new information from a new reliable source, nothing in this discussion is going to produce a good reason for changing the existing description. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 06:49, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I comment on this just as an "outsider"'s POV. This discussion isn't actually related to Boyle's nationality. It's simply the matter of how we describe her "identity" in the lead. IMO writing "Scottish singer" is acceptable because it gives the sense of her cultural or ethnic influence as being born as a Scottish. Unless there's a "nationality" entry available in the artist infobox, then it will be fine to fill it with "British/UK". -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 08:58, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is exactly the point I am making, Escape Orbit. Yes we know where she was born, however there are two approaches to that information, as she was born in both Scotland and in Britain. There is no default, but the only information that we actually have of which there is no counteraction is that she is a British citizen. Furthermore in regards to the Birth Certificate comment, we do not have a copy of her Birth Certificate, as such document's uniformity is not taken as seriously as those on passports. Passports however, although we do not have a copy of that either, having been born in Britain Boyle would have been issued a British passport, as we also know that she has lived here all her life. In order to get into the United States, she would have to of had a valid passport, and any valid British passport does, in every scenario without fail, denote the holder as a 'British citizen', for that is the official description of citizens of this nation. That is the only valid and distinctive information that we have to go on, so what reason is there to keep it as 'Scottish' as opposed to 'British'? TheStig 09:45, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not change the article if you haven't provided a good clear reason for why what is there requires changing. You extrapolating what you believe it says on Boyle's passport is no more valid than extrapolating where she was born and where she lived. So what it says on her passport is not the point, what's important is what is right for this article. Until Boyle chooses to self-identify one way or another, or her actions or fame particularly attach her to one description or other, describing her as Scottish is accurate to a greater degree of precision. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 07:23, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

However, so is British. You said yourself, if there is no source that suggests to us she has preference between British or Scottish, either one is valid enough. As such my point is, her passport is the only information we have to go by. "what's important is what is right for this article" ... isn't that a contradiction? Before you were saying it is how she identified herself. TheStig_t·c 09:17, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:UKNATIONALS is an essay, not a policy as you continue to say, so there's no reason to actually follow it. I suggest you stop calling it a policy and stop changing articles because there is no reason to say that "British" should be the default. Indeed, you are enforcing uniformity. AnemoneProjectors 10:01, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, as such we must refer to the notes on the issue derived from the MOS, which state;

3b. Where there is evidence of a person's preference as to how his or her nationality should be indicated, this should be respected and the evidence referred to in a note. 3c. Otherwise, if there is other sufficient, undisputed evidence of a person's nationality, such as birth and long residence in a country, nationality of that country may be stated.

...since we don't have a source that points us in either direction, we simply after use her nationality, which is British, until/unless a source indicating otherwise arises. TheStig_t·c 20:07, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:UKNATIONALS is widely followed and a fair guide unless anyone can explain why it shouldn't be. And that says unless there is a good reason to change nationality, then maybe you should just leave it be. What her passport probably says is news to no-one, so you are not presenting any new reason that may change what has been a long term consensus. What her passport probably says is neither the overriding consideration or default position. It is also certainly not the "only information we have to go by". We equally have her place of birth and her place of residence, and if anything they are better information because they are already cited on the article. What her passport probably says, on the other hand, remains uncited speculation on your part. Undoubtedly accurate speculation, but speculation all the same. Scottish gives greater precision because it shows which part of the United Kingdom she comes from. This is equally in line with MOS guidelines on Identity; "Use specific terminology". --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:52, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree 100% with that. Also, the only thing I can see in the MOS is at MOS:BIO#Opening paragraph, which states there is no consensus for the UK and links to the essay, and says to use the country, which can be either Scotland or the United Kingdom in this case. So I still see no reason to change Scottish to British. AnemoneProjectors 22:48, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree with the article referring to her as 'Scottish' in the body of the text, but where the field says 'nationality', it should be British. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 13:21, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The website cited as a reference for the amount of times that the video has been viewed is not reliable. The numbers on the website don't matchu up at all to the numbers shown by youtube. Her video had been viewed 91 million times... Still a lot i suppose, but you're supposed to use verified facts in an encyclopedia article -greg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.65.20.158 (talk) 22:14, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you take the one video, yes, but that number is supposed to represent all of the videos on her singing that song on Britain's Got Talent. There are quite a few and most of them have over ten million views. Silverseren^C 22:22, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have sources from HMV and Play.com which say a new album is due out in 2010. Tried to edit on wikipedia, but page is protected, so posting it here.

http://hmv.com/hmvweb/displayProductDetails.do?ctx=280;0;-1;-1;-1&sku=144817 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tompilch (talk • contribs) 10:55, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That an album will be released is more news than encyclopedia content. This doesn't really belong until the album is out and there is something to say about it. ~~ GB fan ~~ ^talk 14:55, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article is one of a number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.

The following request appears on that page:

Many of the articles were selected semi-automatically from a list of indefinitely semi-protected articles. Please confirm that the protection level appears to be still warranted, and consider unprotecting instead, before applying pending changes protection to the article.

Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Pending changes" would be appreciated.

Please update the Queue page as appropriate.

Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:14, 17 June 2010 (UTC).[reply]

• Most of the contested edits here result from content disagreements. I have not seen any pattern of edits from IP editors or chronic problems in this article which would warrant semi-protection. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 01:46, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This seems kind of silly to me. The intro states Global interest in Boyle was triggered by the contrast between her powerful voice and her plain appearance on stage. Wasn't the interest created not by a contrast between her voice and a plain appearance, but rather a contrast between her voice and what's generally agreed to be a homely appearance? I mean, I don't know how you could word that to not be, how shall you say, unkind, but this seems to be missing the point. Voretus (talk) 07:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]