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Talk:Monastery Church, Sighișoara

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Codrinb (talk | contribs) at 20:10, 30 October 2014 (→‎Requested move: lmi code). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Article title

The article was moved without discussion, the common name used in the sources is Biserica Mănăstirii Dominicane, so I have moved it back. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:42, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Of two academic sources you use, Crăciun calls it "the Dominican convent of Sighișoara", while Spinei merely mentions an abbey in Sighișoara, without specifying a particular name. The Romanian government (p. 1081, nr. 834) calls it "the church of the former Dominican monastery, today a Lutheran church, known as the Monastery Church".
There is no one name for this building: relevant sources tend to use a couple of varieties to get at the same idea. Given that, given WP:UE — "Biserica Mănăstirii Dominicane" will not mean much for the vast majority of Wikipedia readers, who are presumed to be anglophone only) —, and given how we generally title Catholic churches in Romania, the eminently sensible solution seems to me "Monastery Church, Sighișoara". It's in English, it's one of the names used (or at least an approximation thereof), it includes the location, and it immediately gives the reader an fairly good idea of what the article is about, something "Biserica Mănăstirii Dominicane" does not. - Biruitorul Talk 14:06, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong, it should either stay here or be moved to Church of the Dominican Monastery (Sighişoara), which is the translation. "Monastery Church, Sighișoara" sure as hell ain't happening, that is a terrible name. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:13, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Given your dismissive and confrontational attitude, I am proceeding with a move request. - Biruitorul Talk 14:32, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Biserica Mănăstirii Dominicane → Monastery Church, Sighișoara – There are four principal reasons for retitling this article and adopting my proposed replacement:

  • The current title is not in English, and per WP:UE, we should be using an English-language title: "If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader."
    • There is, in fact, no established name in English, with one academic source calling it "the Dominican convent of Sighișoara" and another not even assigning a particular name. I think it's undeniable that a translation will not diminish accuracy but will greatly improve understanding for English speakers.
  • If one looks at Category:Roman Catholic churches in Romania and, to a lesser extent, Category:Lutheran churches in Romania, one sees that there is a generally established pattern for titling churches of these denominations in this country (the present church switched from Catholic to Lutheran in 1556): name, city. "Monastery Church, Sighișoara" fits perfectly within that pattern.
  • The closest we have to an official name is this, from the Romanian Culture Ministry. It refers to the building as "the church of the former Dominican monastery, today a Lutheran church, known as the Monastery Church", which is whence I derived the proposed new title.
  • "Monastery Church, Sighișoara" is in English, it gives the name and location right away, and helps the average reader rather than confronting him with an unrecognizable phrase. Biruitorul Talk 14:32, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Per the noms own argument, per UE we are meant to use a translation of the given name, as such any move ought to be to, Church of the Dominican Monastery (Sighişoara). And the ops opening statement is incorrect, travel guides as well as the academic sources in the article give the english translation as well as current title, which is obviously the actual name of the church. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:43, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Travel guides are pretty shoddy as a source in general, and they're explicitly less worthy of consideration than academic works: "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources", per WP:RS. (Evidently, the travel guide cited in the article is not an academic publication; the author is a freelance photojournalist and translator.)
    • Sorry, but are you accusing me of lying? Here is Crăciun p. 64, and here is Spinei p.420. As anyone can see, neither source uses the present title as such.
    • I'm not sure what standard Darkness Shines uses to determine what is "obviously the actual name of the church", but I would think a good place to start would be the Romanian Culture Ministry, which uses "Monastery Church", and Sighișoara City Hall, which, well, also calls it the "Monastery Church". So in fact, "obviously the actual name of the church" is "Monastery Church". - Biruitorul Talk 15:03, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I definitely support an English title, based on the naming conventions of Wikipedia and common sense – the current title ain't no tell anything at all for a non-native speaker. However, when it comes about a proper English name, I'm a bit confused. The only cited source that mentions a concrete name says Church of the Dominican Monastery, though I'm a bit unsure about how accurate International Business Times is in this question – it's definitely out of their main scope. Doing a quick google search didn't convince me either; there were probably more Monastery Church results, though, taking a closer look at these I had to notice that there's a overlap between the search results and that sources not necessarily talk about this concrete church. Still, reading the sources above and based my own searches I'd say that a higher number of authetic sources say simply Monastery Church and thus I tend to support this version. However, I also ha--Codrin.B (talk) 20:01, 30 October 2014 (UTC)ve to consider that the other name is also frequently used, therefore I'd suggest to mention it in the article, somehow like this: "The Monastery Church, also known as the Church of the Dominican Monastery..." Also, I think the article would benefit and would make it clearer if a bit story would be added about that it was first a Dominican (Roman Catholic) church, which was later passed to the Lutherans. Thehoboclown (talk) 19:11, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, I certainly support the move to an English name but Monastery Church, Sighișoara sounds a bit unspecific. A few questions arise immediately: Which monastery's church? Is that the only monastery in Sighisoara? I would also prefer Church of the Dominican Monastery if nothing else can be found. But I wonder if we can't find the real, old name for it, maybe at least in German/Transylvanian Saxon. Maybe it had a name, such as St. Michael's Church or something like that in the middle ages. BTW, here is a faster way to navigate to the List of Historical Monuments in Romania, using the LMI Code, for example for this church: ro:Cod:LMI:MS-II-m-A-15936--Codrin.B (talk) 20:01, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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