Talk:Lorelei

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The start of the myth section references the oldest legend being dwarves, but I can find no evidence of that anywhere. I'm trans and choose the name (with a different showing), so I'd love for that to be true, so if anyone can, cite a source. Otherwise it should be removed.

The sign labelling the rock is in bad taste. Is that sufficent grounds to remove the photo of it? (Say yes!) Wegesrand (talk) 11:17, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article is really well written! However, the last verse is just a "little" bit incorrect, and i changed it.

"Ich glaube, die Wellen verschlingen
Am Ende Schiffer und Kahn"

The "ich glaube" clause means "i believe" or "i suppose". This changes the meaning of the song, because the element of NOT knowing is a literary device that was employed purposefully. I'm open, as always, to opposing views! O'Donnell 19:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are right, O'Donnell. "Konjunktiv", as the german grammar calls it. And he (Heine) changes to "Infinitiv" in the last two verses; thats just great. Its a fact that the Loreley have done this with her singing...but WHAT have she done? That the shipper sinks? That someone believes the shipper sinks??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.18.7.238 (talk) 20:49, 16 May 2012 (UTC) in the last two lines, not verses.[reply]

I added a picture that i took at the Lorelei from a view where the maiden could have potentially sat. I hope everyone likes it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tobyw87 (talk • contribs).

The majority of the trivia section is found on the Lorelei (disambiguation) page, and is therefore redundant. The rest of the info should be on the disambiguation page, since trivia sections are discouraged. Unless someone can come up with a better solution, I'll move the pertinent trivia info to the disambig page in a week. Joliefille 05:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @Joliefille:, wherever you are these days. Sadly it looks like the trivia remained and became a magnet. I will see if anything is worth salvaging. - Hunan201p (talk) 03:10, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There's some use of first person in here, which shouldn't be there. The trivia section needs trimmed quite a bit, mainly, nearly all of it should go. After that, I'd think it's a pretty good article. 65.189.170.90 10:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lonnie Donegan, the King of Skiffle, did a song called Lorelei. It had to do with having kissed various girls around the world, "but I never knew what kissing was 'til I kissed Lorelei." The punch line is "Kissing is her specialty, her one and only dish,/'Cause Lorelei's a mermaid, half a woman, half a fish." I can't find anything online about this song. Jwoiton 17:50, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of songs, should the Dschinghis Khan song Lorelei be mentioned? It is directly about the matter of this article. Xavius, the Satyr Lord (talk) 11:03, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Along the lines of Lorelei song trivia, there's also a track by Eagle Eye Cherry called "When Mermaids Cry". I've attached the first stanza to prove relevance, although I'm not convinced it's in the article's best interests to make it a collection of pop culture links.

"She was drowned in suicide/ Faithless lover cast aside/ This is how she came to be/ Lorelei of the sea/ Hopes destroyed, she wanted to find/ Certain death peace of mind/ Now you wonder who is she, Lorelei of the sea/ Many tales I've been told of sailors having died/ After seeing a mermaid known/ Known as Lorelei/ Faithless lover that is me/ And she siren of the sea/ So next time that the seagulls fly/ Don't you cry sweet Lorelei" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.134.8.225 (talk) 00:12, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems as if some ignorant people write your English encyclopaedias. I happen to be a lifelong Rheinländer, and no one here uses the spelling "Lorelei". Heinrich Heine was already using the spelling "Loreley" in his poem of 1824, and it has never changed since then. Perhaps you should take a look at the German Wikipedia before judging everything after you distorted Anglo-Saxon standards. Reibeisen (talk) 13:44, 20 July 2009 (MEZ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.36.247.155 (talk)

Agreed, the correct spelling has the 'y' at the end. The spelling with 'i' would be more common if it was a modern word - but it is an old name. Maybe worth to mention : The Loreley rock has a natural open air concert stage on top : http://www.rockpalastarchiv.de/l1_e.html or http://www.rockpalastarchiv.de/l2_e.html -- 87.79.206.107 (talk) 09:28, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That was my point. Of course "Loreley" is the correct spelling. Sorry, people, but everyone in Germany will laugh, if you spell it "Lorelei". Please change the word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hartmutgermany (talk • contribs) 21:17, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's ok, vee have decided to change the spelling of Grand Canyon in WP:DE to Gränd Kennjönn. Doceddi (talk) 21:19, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The first 4 lines of the song for Lorelei are referenced in a techno track played by Geoffroy aka Mugwump (http://www.myspace.com/geoffroymugwump) at Kompakt Night in Belgium in May 2009.

Here's the mix that contains the track: http://www.samurai.fm/player/index.php?id=4625 . The lyrics start at 41:43 .

If someone could identify the track, I think this would be a good and reliable reference to add to this article. 24.143.72.201 (talk) 18:32, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I added a link to an English verse-translation of Heine's text, since it seemed apposite, and there wasn't one already. Szfski (talk) 14:56, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The link to the text and translation leads to an error page. This link needs to be updated to point to a better location, for instance: http://ingeb.org/Lieder/ichweiss.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.70.40.8 (talk) 14:29, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just want to say that the correct spelling in German is "Loreley", sometimes (poem of Brentano) Lore Ley (or Lore Lay). The "y" is essential. Best wishes from Germany — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.18.7.238 (talk) 20:43, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I beg your pardon. Brentano also writes "Loreley" ("Loreley!/Loreley!/Loreley!/ Als wären es meiner drei!"). Eichendorff writes "Lorelei" ("Du bist die Hexe Lorelei"). In common is "lore Ley" next to "Loreley". There are two another important Loreley-poems, one by Erich Kaestner, one by Karl valentin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.18.7.238 (talk) 21:01, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Right, hello, I am going to go through this section and seriously edit it down, I am already wikifying it to conform to italics and suchlike, but all the non-notable stuff is going to go, if you have a claim that your reference is notable, then speak up. CaptainScreebo ^Parley! 00:37, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please see section note before adding extra cultural references, this is beyond a joke, only significant works of art featuring or referencing the Lorelei in a major way will be included, please see Wikipedia: Trivia and Wikipedia: Handling trivia. I am also going to clean the External Links section. CaptainScreebo ^Parley! 12:10, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

sorry, but the wiki is so important, and the word "Loreley" (of course with an y at its end) is so common in Germany: Please change it! If the english Wiki calls it "Lorelei", everone in Germany laughs and laughs. The name is "Loreley", period. Only the poet Eichendorff called it "Lorelei", and that was an reading mistake. Brentano: Loreley. Heine: Loreley. Please change it!

A picture of the Heine Memorial was added semi-recently, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lorelei&diff=prev&oldid=494440464. While the article does refer to this statue, I don't feel a picture is warranted here, since the article is about the place, not Heine's poem, much less the mythical figure alluded to there. Thoughts anyone? Otherwise i will remove it. cheers, Doceddi (talk) 14:28, 24 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The place cannot be separated from the mythical figure and the folk tale (is there a separate article for that? I don't find one on the disambiguation page). And it is rather surprising that in the far-away Bronx a German peculiarity is remembered. ♆ CUSH ♆ 18:19, 24 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There's little in the article about the geology or the place, which would seem to have little significance without Loreley herself. The memorial to the lyrical poet Heine, which features Loreley, acquired a special significance beyond its artistic merits: in Düsseldorf, where the memorial for Heine was enthusiastically planned, the concept became bogged down in anti-Semitic, nationalist, and religious criticism by the time the fountain was finished. Through the intervention of German American activists, led by Carl Schurz, the memorial was to be transplanted to a very prominent location (the plaza at 59th Street and Fifth Avenue) in Manhattan. There the memorial statue became embroiled in yet another foolish controversy, then found its way to a prominent position in The Bronx, at 161st Street and Grand Concourse. This means a lot in New York. There is only one pre-1945 German memorial to Heine, in Frankfurt. See: "Sturm und Drang Over a Memorial to Heinrich Heine" The New York Times (27 May 2007). See also:Lehman College, Public Art in The BronxFconaway (talk) 20:27, 24 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

.. would seem to have little significance without Loreley herself -- oo, you'd not say that if you'd ever been there :) it's a very striking geological / landscape formation. I don't dispute the significance of the memorial -- in fact, i added the link to the article. i'm just questioning the justification for a picture here. cheers, Doceddi (talk) 13:08, 25 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, the physical point and its geology deserve more extensive treatment in the article. If the image of Loreley doesn't belong here, neither would the discussion of the folklore and the literary imprint of Loreley. They are of a piece. And they belong somewhere: perhaps a separate article, but only if the legend would have existed independently. Is there evidence on this question? Fconaway (talk) 08:26, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Judging from the article, there may have been an actual echo or whisper from the rock. Very few boatmen actually were ever done in by the river at that place, and there was no historical beguiling Loreley. The story was all made up by Brentano's imagination. This became a very Nineteenth-century motif with Twentieth-century implications. Rhinemaidens and similar themes, with a Danube locus, are found in the Song of the Nibelungs and in earlier Norse/Germanic literature.Fconaway (talk) 09:42, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This was flagged for follow-up by WikiProject Middle Ages, yet the article has a focus on Nineteenth century literary history: it has practically nothing to do with the Middle Ages. I have removed.Fconaway (talk) 21:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I note that User:Cush systematically changed instances of "Lorelei" to "Loreley" in the article and scrubbed mention of the former from the lede [2] However it must be noted that "Lorelei" has in fact been used, e.g. note the sheet music from 1859 where it is clearly spelled with an "i" in the title, "270. Lorelei."

and in the last line: "und das hat mit ihrem Singen die Lorelei gethan."

Note the statue in NYC, as per the NYC Parks website: [3]

"The Heinrich Heine Fountain (also known as the Lorelei Fountain) honors the German poet, writer, and social dissident Heinrich Heine (1797–1856), whose poem Die Lorelei immortalized the mysterious creature of romantic legend."

So, to the extent that this was an overzealous edit, it needs to be repaired. -- Limulus (talk) 09:29, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Good move, thanks. I think that there is a lot of confusion, as an English speaker I have always known it as "Lorelei" but someone above states that there is no "Lorelei" ever in German which your post above clearly shows to be untrue! CaptainScreebo ^Parley! 10:35, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if both had previously been in use, similar to humblebee and bumblebee, but "Loreley" is the only form in use today in Germany. -- Limulus (talk) 10:59, 27 July 2012 (UTC) Another possibility is that Silcher made a typo and it's been repeated (esp. in EN speaking countries) for over a century and a half! ;D Note e.g. [4] [5] etc. -- Limulus (talk) 18:19, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I also just found this stamp:

Which appears to show the original Silcher sheet music; note what appears to be "Lorelei" at the top. -- Limulus (talk) 10:59, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the place and the mythical creature it is named after. Both are spelled Loreley. And the original Heine poem was named "Die Lore-Ley" (with a hyphen), as well as the Lied by Silcher. What other (antiquated?) versions exist should not matter in an encyclopedia, although they should be mentioned, of course. ♆ CUSH ♆ 16:51, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, indeed; I'm not suggesting moving the article back to Lorelei- it's fairly obvious that Loreley is correct in German. What I am saying though is that the i-spelling is important for the EN language Wikipedia; it was noted that it seems to be more used in english usage. I suggest that all i-instances we use have quotes to indicate they're being used intentionally. -- Limulus (talk) 18:19, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In the Philippine novel Noli Me Tangere, the Lorelei is mentioned in the seventh chapter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.107.161.122 (talk) 12:11, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• In 1903 in almost all German terms letter "y" was changed for letter "i", but in some German names, letter "y" was kept, such as Speyer, Loreley, Spay, (Rheinberg-)Orsoy, …
• Loreley is the spelling preferred by Duden, the standard orthographic dictionary of German language, 24th edition, 2006. I never have seen it with an "i" in German texts. Even the large painted sign on the base of the rock uses that spelling. The photographer, who transferred the photo from en.wikipedia under the wrong spelled name, was an American.--Ulamm (talk) 23:05, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Referring to the discussion above: "Germany" is the English exonyme for "Deutschland", but "Lorelei" is no exonyme. If it is politically incorrect to use "Lleyn" for "Llŷn" Peninsula, a correct spelling of Loreley can be requested. But Lorelei is not even an Anglization, it is a ridiculous over-Germanization of a German name.--Ulamm (talk) 23:29, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever it is, it's how the rock is denoted in English and the English-speaking world, generally. For good or ill or rightly or wrongly. Herostratus (talk) 00:03, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The spelling should be its traditional German spelling: "Loreley" cf. another German-speaking fieldname (also for a rock) "Richelsley" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richelsley