Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2023/March

Can anyone find evidence that enough is enough is a calque of Yiddish גענוג איז גענוג (genug iz genug)? — Sgconlaw (talk) 21:38, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

John Heywood, a 16th-century English writer, recorded the phrase as being one of “the prouerbes in the englishe tongue”. (See the first citation for the entry.) I find it implausible that a 16th-century English proverb derived directly or indirectly from a Yiddish source. I find the phrase also used in a contemplation by Robert Harris D.D. from Oxford, formerly a pastor in Hanwell, entitled “A Remedy againſt Covetouſneſſe”, published in 1654.^[1] I find it hard to image a pathway from a Yiddish saying to a 17th-century Anglican pastor and consider this in fact evidence against it being a calque from Yiddish.  --Lambiam 17:19, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There appears to be general agreement in the literature that enough already is a calque on a Yiddish expression (as discussed by Leo Rosten in Hooray for Yiddish, pp. 113–4 e.g.), but I can't find people making that claim about enough is enough. This thesis on Yiddish-origin terms in English explicitly contrasts enough already as a phrase of Yiddish origin with enough is enough as the "general English" expression (p. 56). Apart from the proverbial meaning mentioned by Lambiam, the OED also has a 17th-century example of enough is enough where it seems to serve as an expression of exasperation, so I think Yiddish origin can be excluded. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 17:46, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I also couldn’t find anything satisfactory to indicate a Yiddish origin. — Sgconlaw (talk) 19:45, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I stumbled onto the entry for barberry while looking to add photographs. Can someone comment on whether the correct etymology is from "barb" + "berry"? They do have substantial thorns. A direct descent from "berberis" as listed in the entry page seems too simplistic. Gorillo.Chimpo (talk) 00:16, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Middle English berberie makes that unlikely. The similarity of the "-beris" in Medieval Latin berberis to Middle English berie led to a change in the Middle English ending through folk etymology- perhaps the same thing happened with the "berb-" in berberie and Middle English barbe. I should mention, though, that in Middle English barbe was the word for beard, and wasn't as widely used for spiky things as in modern English. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:19, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am very interested in this concept of "reinforced by" that the good editor @LlywelynII is proposing in Huaiyang's etymology: diff. I have often thought of doing something similar, but I never found the kind of objective criteria with which to make these judgments. In the absence of such criteria, I use citations to determine when a word originated. Sometimes, it is clearly no older than Wade-Giles- like Kaohsiung. Sometimes it is clearly no older than pinyin (Hanyu Pinyin)- Guangzhou- or Tongyong Pinyin -Cijin. Sometimes, it's pre-modern, like Shanghai. I even provisionally identified some words as coming from pre-Wade language-specific transcriptions: Xansi, Shang-hae, Chang-hai, Fo-chan, etc.

My strict mindset says: No! There is no 'reinforcement'! If it existed, later transcription/transliteration systems that mimic the results of the older systems are irrelevant! My open-minded thinking says: Of course! How could you avoid mentioning systems that are in some way a part of the history of a given word's use?

Anyway, I think this is something better for a discussion between you all. I literally do not know what to do. Once some determination is made, I will follow along with that. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 14:36, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• It's a relatively standard concept in etymology and I'm not sure what's problematic about it. Certainly for places in mainland China the idea that "if it existed, later transcription/transliteration systems that mimic the results of the older systems are irrelevant" would just be wrong, given that there is now generally an expectation of conforming with pinyin. "Reinforcement" reflects exactly this kind of situation, where another linguistic source happens to align with some prior derivation. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Obviously it depends. In the case of Shanghai, use of that form preceded Wade being born, but its continuing use is just as clearly based on it being the atonal pinyin form of the name. It's worth mentioning, which is why I mentioned it. It's fair enough to remove it from Huaiyang, demanding to see an exact source, but that seems unhelpful and specious unless there's a good-faith reason to doubt the information. Here, it's just the PSP form created by nixing Wade's hyphens. It was neither pinyin (which didn't exist yet) nor Wade (which should have the hyphens).

Anyway, just use full-on blank lines for paragraph breaks or find a way to indent them. Don't just run things together in awkward blocks of broken text using a single < br > tag. — LlywelynII 14:58, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I see this as an evolving situation. I am proud that Wiktionary is working on this, because I don't see anyone else doing this hard work. I am 100% open-minded to experimentation in this area. For those among you who think "Oh God, can't we just ignore the transliteration systems, bruh?", confront how the three words Xizhi, Hsichih, and Sijhih would be handled in your mindset- you would botch it. So we need to create a system that is really better than anything else that exists. UPDATE: Check out Shihlin and Shihmen. Under my understanding of the 'reinforce' theory, I would add "reinforced by Tongyong Pinyin". UPDATE: 'reinforced' is good, but what about 'reiterated'? --Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:19, 2 March 2023 (UTC) (Modified)[reply]

@Geographyinitiative: As I said above, "reinforced" is the standard word for this phenomenon, it's not something we've made up (as "reiterated" would be). —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RFV of the etymology.

see Vocabolario Etimologico della Lingua Italiano 1907 — This unsigned comment was added by Italiano10000 (talk • contribs) at 03:44, 3 March 2023‎.

Can you explain what aspect you want to see verified? Do you question the veracity of the entry banca-rotta in the Vocabolario etimologico della lingua italiana? Or do you doubt that English bankrupt, like Italian bancarotta, was derived from banca +‎ rotta?  --Lambiam 12:15, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure but since @Italiano10000 added the source themselves and removed the RFE tag they might just be notifying that it's resolved. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 12:39, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think, though, that it is plausible that Medieval Latin was an intermediary: bankrupt < banca rupta < banca rotta.  --Lambiam 12:24, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So, it would have been borrowed from Italian, but then re-Latinized? (Otherwise, it seems that many languages have borrowed the French form.) Wakuran (talk) 12:54, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible that the English 〈p〉 was mute at some point, and hence at that point not spelt either, afterwards in English etymologically to ruptures etc.? In German though we find bankrutt, Bankrutt often in the mid-19th century still, so the direct Italian borrowings claimed do not wholly convince me, rather Middle French banqueroute as for Dutch bankroet is the case for these forms at least, so Wakuran’s suspicion of French borrowing seems right. (bankerott and bankerutt is also often in German, the second vowel French.) Fay Freak (talk) 13:06, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the OED has Middle French as an intermediary, with bankrupt from Middle French bancque roupte, bancque rotte, which itself is from Italian banca rotta. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 13:13, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I have looked into the OED now. The relevant spelling in various quotes is bankrout, also with ck, que, hyphen, trailing e etc., both adjective and verb from mid 16th century. Not going to clean Wiktionary’s pile of omissions here, I am just making note that the translations all have to be checked as having been added by etymological fallacy—German bankrott, I have fixed, is not used in legal parlance anymore (bankruptcy law → Insolvenzrecht) and so on; I don’t intend to check all particular legal systems of Europe, especially if I can rely upon later editors botchily amending the translation tables anyway and the next one complaining that Fay Freak has been a formatting brazenface to convey points incomprehensible for the general language user anyway. Fay Freak (talk) 15:11, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We find the Latin term banca rupta in the book Dissertatio de foenere trapesitico, a treatise by Claude Saumaise from 1640.^[2] Saumaise first gives a Greek term meaning “the table has been upset” (τράπεζα ἀνασκουασθεῖσα ἀνασκευασθεῖσα) before writing that “our people” call this banca rupta. In the 16th century we find the spelling Bankroute^[3][4][5] next to bankrupt.^[6][7][8]  --Lambiam 05:10, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(That's an ευ.) That's an ancient Greek expression—LSJ has "τῆς τραπέζης ἀνασκευασθείσης ἀνασκευασθείσης" in Demosthenes, and we have it as a sense at ἀνασκευάζω. I can't find any suggestion in the literature that banca rotta is related to the Greek, though, which has a slightly different semantic nuance in any case—dismantling in the first instance rather than breaking—so this might be a case of convergent evolution. The OED notes that ruptura, by itself, for bankruptcy is attested in Italy in the early 14th century. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 14:15, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The story of these benches being immediately torn to pieces speaks to the imagination, but I somehow have my doubts that the physical benches of insolvent bankers in renaissance Florence were literally broken. Just like English broken, Italian rotto can be used figuratively to mean “useless, wiped out, ruined”.  --Lambiam 17:33, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Right, since banca must also have been figurative already, to transfer to a whole situation of a business or person. Apart from the circumstance that benches weren’t cheaply mass-produced to be thrown away when someone moves unlike today. Fay Freak (talk) 14:36, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RFV of the etymology. Added by @Mahogany115. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:11, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.facebook.com/920473704740560/posts/3118662158255026/ Mahogany115 (talk) 06:26, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I could not find the etymology using Google. Is it from the sense “one who muses” (although the meaning does not seem related) or from a clipping of music/Musical.ly + -er? J3133 (talk) 13:50, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Or just m(usical) user? —Soap— 16:31, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since the last part has fallen out whether it's music, musical, musical.ly is academic, but a blend with user would also be my guess. The coincidence with muser as "one who muses" was probably intentional but not the first-order derivation. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 16:38, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have added “Likely a blend of Musical.ly (or music/musical) +‎ user” as the etymology. J3133 (talk) 10:45, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have been looking for the etymology of this Sanskrit word for a long time and haven't been successful. Does anyone know what the source of the word itself?

I am studying how various languages express the concept of [moment]. Any information would be very helpful. Thanks! 188.150.0.254 12:05, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]